Ed Jaffe is the Founder of Demo Solutions.  In this session we spent time exploring the top reasons sales demonstrations fail and how to avoid them.

Ed’s business is focused on helping businesses deliver great sales demonstrations, and his sales demonstration tips are top-notch.  In this conversation, we explored the topic from the perspective of a blog post he wrote on demo failures.

Here are a few tips we covered:

1️⃣ Slow your roll.  Stop spending time talking about how great you are.  Seek to understand your customer and their needs.  Remember, it’s about them.

2️⃣Narrating the demo.  Stop reading the slides and stop counting on a text heavy slide deck.  If they are reviewing your slides, they are not listening to you.  This is a critical sales demonstration tip!

3️⃣ When you do make a mistake with your sales demos…  Put time into planning the demo, how you will communicate, and every other aspect of your demo.  Get it right.

We spent time exploring changes important for delivering sales demonstrations in our virtual-first world and many other topics.

Give a listen and remain curious.

Audio Transcript

The Collaborator
Take a second to introduce yourself before I do a bad job of doing it.

Ed Jaffe
I actually kind of want to see your bad you’re you’re taking a bad job first, but I suppose I can give a little bit. So I’ve been mostly in pre sales demo roles for most of my career. It’s, it’s, it’s funny one of those things that every time I try to do something else, I just come back to it. So I figured I should just do this for a while. And so I founded my company two years ago, it’s a full service demo solution company, really, our focus is helping clients deliver better demos and presentations, so they can close deals faster. Everything from coaching, worship, workshops, content creation, outsource pre sales for companies that don’t have the kind of salary lying around for a really expert demo resource. And we have a few things that we actually just launched the we’re excited about. We have some workshops that went live a couple of weeks ago. And we also just partner with a diversity, equity and inclusivity consultant to help companies make sure that their demos are inclusive. My perspective on that is inclusive from a business side. So are you including everybody in the deal. And his role is looking at race, gender, sexual orientation, all the things that I think are important, keep in mind, but I don’t have the perspective or knowledge to do that. So you brought in somebody who does,

Unknown Speaker
I love that I

The Collaborator
love that so much that I just launched a series as part of this podcast around inclusion, belonging and equality. And I do not know nearly enough, so I did it as much for me to selfishly learn from people smarter than me as anything. But it’s such an important thing for all of us to take into account right now.

Ed Jaffe
Yeah, I saw that. I thought I’m really excited to dig into it a It looks like you have some great people as part of that.

The Collaborator
Yeah, no, awesome, awesome. Now I’m going to start by putting you on the spot. You claim your master thesis abusive Master, I’m dad jokes. And I’ll share with the audience I

Unknown Speaker
torture my

The Collaborator
220 something year old daughters every day with a bad dad joke. So when I saw that Ed shares a lot of dad jokes, I had to ask him just to share one. Sure.

Ed Jaffe
So the one that that’s been Top of Mind is I’m teaching my kid to ride his balanced bike. So I go into bike direction on this one. All right. Why did the bike need a nap? See, I feel tired.

Unknown Speaker
That’s so bad. I’m going to share

Unknown Speaker
about it.

The Collaborator
Hey, let’s get past the dad jokes and talk about demos, because that’s probably a better use of both of our times.

Unknown Speaker
I don’t know I could do dad

The Collaborator
jokes all day, to be honest with you. But um, but nobody wants to hear those. Nope, my daughters don’t want to hear when I text them. So I’ll let’s just talk about demos. Tell me a little bit about though, you know, a demo. Geez, I’ve been in in, in this in the tech world for nearly 30 years. And demos, I’ve always been this mysterious thing that sometimes you get it right. And sometimes you get it wrong. I you know, how do you go about making sure you create and deliver a great demo?

Ed Jaffe
Well, part of it is frankly getting it wrong. And I’ve gotten it wrong a whole bunch of times. It’s the only reason I know how to do any of it the right way. But the way that I the way that I think about it is there’s a lot of aspects. But the three big ones is process, keeping things conversational, and breaking your own habits. And process comes in a number of ways that it’s important. Thinking about the right activity and the right demo for the right place in the funnel. A lot of times people will agree to a demo earlier than they should even on that first call when you don’t have a use case yet. You don’t know why the clients interested in just Hey, let me show you a bunch of software and hope you find something you like and that fails more often than it succeeds. It does.

The Collaborator
Absolutely.

Ed Jaffe
And the the biggest thing there is if you’re doing demo without discovery you’re doing you’re wrong. You absolutely have to conduct discovery. I’ve been fortunate in that in my pre sales roles, I’ve been able to say I’m not doing a demo without discovery. And that was also easier to enforce back in the days if you remember long ago when we got on airplanes and actually went to see people in person. I heard this used to

Unknown Speaker
happen.

Ed Jaffe
Yeah, it was we did it for a little while. And it was much easier business case to make because it when I would have people asked to cover a meeting. Hey, I’m based in Chicago. So hey, can we go to Arizona to cover this first meeting? Short, but do we have a use case? No. Well, why am I going to go and really, it’s not just in my best interest but in the account executives best interest because it’s a qualification thing. If you’re not going to give me half an hour before the demo, why am I possibly going to get on an airplane and burned three days

The Collaborator
when I can get a half an hour from you. And so important for the customer to customers don’t always get it because they’re like give me a demo. But you don’t know what their problems are to your very point so they are not served any better than we Are?

Ed Jaffe
Well, I think at the end of the day, they don’t care about our pitch. And so how many meetings have you seen that start with? Okay, we’re gonna tell you about our founder, our founder worked at this big tech company and didn’t like that they couldn’t do this thing. So then they started the company. And here’s our offices, and here’s all this history, customer could not care less. And so we waste 15 minutes on ourselves. And then we just throw up a bunch of stuff about our technology and hope for the best. So having this process around, it is so critical, what people can do is you can actually do discovery in the same meeting, if necessary, which I’ve done plenty of times. So instead of just jumping into the demo, I often create decks that have a number of value props that I could talk about not features, but value props for the customer. So whether we’re talking about saving time, reducing effort, whatever those things are, that we want to focus on, I can after, ask him questions, put those value props on the screen and say, Look, I can talk about any of these five things. Based on our conversation, this one or two things seems like it’s gonna resonate, do I have that right? Then I’m pitching all the things I do in a way that’s not aggressive, and I’m making it about the customer. And if they want to talk about the other stuff, you’re gonna get a second meeting, once you show value, they’ll have you back. So instead of trying to force everything in that one meeting, just make it about them. And then you can build your process around early in the demo, we’re going to early in the cycle, we’re going to get the use case, and we’re going to keep fleshing it out. If we have to build a proof of concept, we will. But if you do things right earlier on, you can actually get out of proofs of concept. A lot of times people just ask for those because they don’t know what the next step is. So a salesperson of the RP, you got to give it to me. Yeah. And so the thing, though, yes. But if I haven’t talked to the customer, and I’m just answering an RFP, I’m probably fodder and should maybe not do that, because I’m only doing his procurement told them to go talk to other vendors. But they’ve already made their decision, they’re not going to go through this whole process. I’ve been burned by that a couple of times, this is anybody who’s been in this business long enough.

The Collaborator
Know that, you know, that’s awesome. The one thing I was going to point out to everybody is you actually sound like you know what you’re talking about, which is, which is awesome.

Ed Jaffe
Only because I’ve gotten it wrong more times than I can then I can count. And so if we think about getting process, right, and then being adaptable, which is managing audiences, knowing what questions to answer what questions to punt on, especially in that last bit of the meeting, where you get that one question, there’s maybe 15 minutes left, and you want to go show the customer, sometimes all you have to do when they say, Can you do this? Yeah. And just sit there, you’ve built credibility to do that. And so being adaptive to what’s happening in the room, and not just going down a list of questions for the sake of asking them, but understanding what do I need? And what do you need. The other piece of that is not only being adaptable with a customer, but with your sales team. And whoever’s in the room, usually, it’s more than two people, or more than one person. If your enterprise, if you’re in a bigger company, sometimes you bring as we called it, the company used to work for the bus where you just have 10 people, and you’re not even sure why half of them are there. But then people sometimes want to talk over each other to maybe add value or say to the person running the demo, Hey, can you show this thing you’re not prepared for. And so if put in that situation, we can find a way to be adaptable, but I’m really big on finding nonverbal communication, even if it’s as simple as Okay, john, I’m going to take this part of the demo. And if you want to ask something or add something go off mute, then I know you’re ready to talk, but then I’ll call on you when I’m ready. And if By the way, I move off of the thing you were going to talk about, you just go back on mute. And now we know without any thing more than that without worrying about well, if I Slack, you might come up on the screen, that that hides that. And so understanding that look is a as the mike tyson quote that is often repeated is everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. So you just have to know that whatever the customer wants you to do is more important than whatever it is you want it to do. And then the third thing so we talked about being adaptable, having a process is avoiding the bad habits. And that’s just as important as getting things right is not getting things wrong, which sounds kind of obvious. But it turns out according to research that about 45% of our everyday behaviors, we repeat them in whatever the context or location is. And usually we don’t even think about it. And there’s so many ways this comes up. If it’s your the obvious ones are the crutches that we sometimes use, like you anything that you’re filling in because you don’t really know where you’re going. And usually that happens because your brain is about a sentence ahead of where your mouth is and you’re trying to reconcile those two things. I actually have on my desk on my monitor, I just have a note that says I’m slow down. That’s my way of just reminding myself. That’s how I don’t do.

Unknown Speaker
I love that.

Ed Jaffe
It’s just so it’s just a little reminder, because I know I’ll do it if I don’t remind myself. And the other one that comes up a lot are rhetorical questions. If I ask you a rhetorical question, what do you do with that? That’s and that’s a half rhetorical question is you’re kind of sitting there like,

Unknown Speaker
what what do you want me to answer?

Ed Jaffe
And so if you’re in a meeting, and Hey, have you ever been in this situation? No. Or you get a question Where ever have you ever been in? I’ll actually ask for, you know, this one, if you’ve been in a situation where you’re in a meeting, or maybe if you’re a kid in the classroom, and you know, you’re the nerdy kid who wants to answer questions, and you teach us a question, and you want to answer it, and then you don’t because someone else gets called on and they move on, you feel a little deflated. You wanted to say something

Unknown Speaker
I was ready to answer.

Ed Jaffe
Exactly. So if I’m asking you rhetorical questions you want to answer, but then you can’t, because I’ve taken that opportunity from you. So in the back of your mind, you’re now frustrated, you may not even know why. But you know, you’re upset. Right? And that one’s a twofer, by the way, right is a crutch and a rhetorical question.

The Collaborator
Those have not been there was so much great, so much great advice in there. And I mean, it really was, you know, one of the things that so often goes wrong, that you hit so squarely on the head was the lack of preparation. People just don’t organize ahead of the call. They think I’ve done demos 3000 times, why do we need to talk about it. But things like you said about the the rules, you know, whether I’m looking for you to mute and unmute mute, it is sort of all those unwritten rules that need to be talked through and make sure people are aligned. Not just a use case, but the whole behavior flow. Really, really solid advice. I’m gonna ask you a question, though. They made me think about, you know, we used to fly on these things called airplanes, still surprises me to this day that those things actually stay in the air. So I’m happy to be on the ground. But what do you do today? That’s different, you know, if I’m, you know, it’s one thing to be in a room, reading body language and seeing Oh, they seem to be nodding off, this isn’t working. It’s another thing when you’re doing it virtually or you know, a resume or something. How do you differ your approach, if at all?

Ed Jaffe
There’s there’s a few ways that you can defer your approach. One of the most important aspects is webcams being able to see somebody and make that eye contact, and a piece of advice that something that Josh Braun does the sales expert is he, when I had a meeting with a meeting with him, and he put video meeting in big letters on that invite, so I knew that’s exactly what I was getting into. And so but then there was no question. And so if you sometimes say this will be a video meeting. It’s just a subtle reminder. And even if the customer is not going to go on video, being on video as the presenter, it changes the dynamic completely, because even though Yeah, maybe I can’t see them, which I can’t read the audience, but they can see me they can see I’m a person. And when we finally do see each other, whether it’s face to face, whether it’s in a webcam, now they know who I am. And it’s creating more of that person a person selling because like, at the end of the day, we’re buying from people and people buy from people they like, I don’t see that changing anytime soon. I

The Collaborator
like that tip too, because at least I’ve noticed that sometimes I’ll start a meeting where people were half the room will have their cameras on and or even less, but because I’ve got mine on, they almost feel obligated to turn it on. And and unmask themselves. And it does lead to a better conversation. Sorry,

Ed Jaffe
sorry to interrupt you. But I know but no worry. I mean, by all means and nine times out of 10 people will go on camera, yeah, you start or they’ll eventually get there. Or in the second call, though, realize that okay, I should probably go on webcam for this. And the part of it too, is setting up the environment for being virtual. As you can see, I do a lot of work around my background to I try to keep a little more interesting. You can probably tell some of that

The Collaborator
was lovely. I love the guitars that was the first thing that caught my eye when we got on together today.

Ed Jaffe
I appreciate that. And they they usually lead to a discussion cuz either somebody asked about the records, every one of the records back there has a story that I can talk to if people pick a one out that they like, or something we’ll talk about, maybe they’re a musician, and now we’re talking about a mutual interest. And it’s a whole lot more interesting than talking about the weather when we get on a call. Now we’re having something to engage on while we’re waiting for whoever else to join because you know, it’s gonna take you five minutes just to get everyone to join in. So having a good background can definitely help. Virtual backgrounds can work. I like yours. I think it’s a lot of fun. So I did that. I’ve seen though sometimes people aren’t necessarily aware that they don’t have any contrast between themselves and the wall. And so like that shirt Wearing would probably blend into my wall a little bit. And then the camera wouldn’t necessarily know where the wall is and where I am. Or when I have a headset on with a virtual background. It thinks this is my hair, which, clearly it’s not. So now you see this app where you can see through and that’s all I will look at, while I’m on a call is that little thing, I will just stare at it.

The Collaborator
Oh, absolutely.

Ed Jaffe
I was on a call yesterday where somebody held up a piece of paper, and it thought that was part of the background. And so the person just disappeared, and you couldn’t see them. And then they were ghosting in and out. And it was kind of funny, but it didn’t really work and help actually

The Collaborator
move the conversation forward.

Ed Jaffe
It does. And at least you can tell people are paying attention. And so I think there’s a sense that you have to invest a lot into creating the tech environment. And you really don’t have an external webcam is a huge huge differentiator, especially if you’re on a Dell one of those, the Dell XPS that people have where they put the camera in the keyboard for some reason. And now you’re looking up someone’s nose for an hour. And nobody wants that. It also changes the dynamic a little bit if somebody that you’ve seen the management tip, quote, unquote, have stood above the people in the office. So then you feel above them, which I don’t like doing the

The Collaborator
58 steps, but not anymore.

Ed Jaffe
Yeah, but it doesn’t make sense management advice, because it’s not a good way to treat people. But it still creates that dynamic. If you feel like you’re on a different level, it does create a little bit of a physical difference. And so external webcam, and you don’t have to get a fancy one, the one that I have, I think was 30 or 50 bucks, I put more into the audio equipment. So I have a podcasting mic on a boom arm, but I’m also a total audio nerd. So you don’t necessarily need something like that. But having a headset, perhaps I can use this mic when my kids napping as he is right now. But when he’s awake, maybe a headset with a mic is a little bit better. I do think people are more understanding of things like dogs and kids. And we’re all human. And so if anything he usually being a little vulnerable about Yeah, my kids here that’s creating a little bit of a connection, I was on a call yesterday, and near the end of the call someone’s kid just ran into frame. And it was funny because a virtual background. So out of nowhere, that kid was there. And it was just kind of a funny moment, because I have a kid I think it’s I think it’s adorable. And we can all kind of be amused by that because we’re people and we’re getting some empathy there. The other piece too, is just getting the lighting, right. So I have a light that I have off to the side, sometimes I use it sometimes I don’t it depends on how much I want to control the shadows. But I have a light in front of me I have a light over there, just the windows. If you have a window behind you, if you have an overhead light, too visible, it can create some weird effects. Or especially if you are perhaps a little on the paler side like I am, if you have a bright light behind you, it’s even more obvious. And so just the more you can do to have light focused on you, even if it’s just a ring light, which you can get for 12 bucks. So that’s how you want to set up the room instead of the tech. And then the other piece is think about the choreography is almost more important in person, you want to try to find opportunities to break up the meeting. You can do that with questions, you can do that where you can read people, it’s harder virtually people so I can’t see what you’re seeing. And so I need to do more to guide your attention. There are tools like mouse Jose, you can do, which is spelled mouse pose, which basically lets you zoom in on the screen. If you have a Mac zoom, it is the Windows version. Zoom has controls where you can annotate and draw. I have two widescreen monitors in front of me, you don’t know where I’m looking. And so if I am highlighting something, you’re probably looking at it. But then having breaks in the content coming off camera when you want to have a conversation or coming back on camera. Rather, if you’re uncomfortable being on camera, be on camera for a little bit. And then when you’re showing something, turn the camera off, but then come back on to talk to the audience. And you don’t want to have any activity go for more than five minutes. Something about screens makes things feel like they take longer, especially videos. I don’t know why a video in a presentation feels about five times as long as not being on video. There’s probably a scientific reason for it. I’m sure someone’s done research on this, I have not read it. But videos feel like they take longer in person they take longer than talking and on in this environment. They take forever. So you can’t have a video for more than a minute if you do. And think about how to break up that content. So you have lots of ways that you’re getting someone’s attention again, otherwise they’re just gonna focus on something else.

The Collaborator
That was that was about a man on one tips right there. And as a fellow pale, balding human man, I can tell you that. I agree with all the advice you just gave. about lighting and stuff like that, that are really really good and really smart. You know, let me ask you this. If If I may, and let me transition. So one of the things that I know you guys put out your company put out, and I think it was you personally, was about demo farriers reason why demos go south? And we’ve all been in there. We’ve all been giving demos and had them go sideways. But what are some of the common reasons in any thoughts and how we can avoid them?

Ed Jaffe
Yeah, and avoiding them is the best way to approach it. Yeah, coming back from them is the sort of avoiding is the best trying to come back from them. And sometimes I’ve seen stuff where there’s just you might as well pick up the laptop and just leave it because you’re just not going to go anywhere. You have to recover from that. Exactly. You really can’t. And so I look at it, I have a category of demo fails, there are six of them. And I can share a few. And so one of the ones that I see a lot is what I call, that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. That’s where I come in, I have my plan. And I just talk, I tell you, as I mentioned earlier, the stuff about the founder, the offices, the history, and no one cares, the client could ask a question, and you still just do your own thing. And I think about it’s sort of like a baseball season back when we have long versions of that. So if you think about a baseball season, there’s 160, some odd games within that season. And so people act like the games in September matter more than the ones in April, they don’t, they only feel like they matter more, because you didn’t win in April. And now you’re trying to make up for it at the end of the season. It’s no different in a sales meeting. If you waste the first 15 minutes, you find yourself scrambling at the end to put everything together and try to get that next step. And I want to show you one more thing, just just one more thing. I’ve closed the laptop on a demo like that, where I was being used when I was running a sales ops team, someone was showing me some software for some lead engagement. And he spent 10 minutes on something that we specifically said we weren’t interested in, we got kicked out of the room, I literally closed a laptop lid on him. And he was talking as I was closing the laptop lid, because he just wasted a bunch of time,

The Collaborator
tunnel vision, but it happens to some people that like I’ve got these 30 slides I gotta run through. I’m gonna get through them. And then I will listen to you. And then I will listen to you. What exactly a horrible way to approach it. I’ve seen that great, great. observation.

Ed Jaffe
Well, and I like the point you made about the 30 slides. That’s another one of the demo fails that we think about that I called narrating the demo. So if that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it is the what narrating the demo is the how that’s where I have a bunch of slides, they have a bunch of words, and I’m just going to read them. And I’m not in here with you. I’m just here’s my slides. And it can happen in person just as easily as virtually, it’s even more distracting virtually, because I’m just going to read as humans, we don’t have the ability to separate our to to pay attention to multiple things. Anyone who thinks they can multitask is just wrong. Some people are better at splitting attention than others. So if you’ve ever been watching TV, and you’re doing something on your phone, and then you look up, Hey, what happened? That’s the same thing. You can’t focus on whoever you’re texting and whatever happened in the show.

The Collaborator
I when I was in high school, I got all A’s. So I used to study with the radio on the TV on and my book in front of me. My mother was would be like, how can you do them? Like, I’m so smart. No, I was an idiot. I couldn’t I didn’t wasn’t paying attention. Anything. So

Ed Jaffe
I’m with you. Background though, that that’s different. Because sometimes you need I need some noise around me to really focus but that kind of rounds stuff out. There’s difference between I want music or TV on versus I am trying to pay attention to multiple things. Because usually I’ll just tune out whatever the music is sometimes find myself to engage. I can’t always have TV in front of me because I’m like, Oh, wait, I want to know what happens. So background, if it’s something I’ve seen a bunch of times, like an old Arrested Development, and yeah, I know all the jokes, we can go with it. But if we’re having slides in front of us that we’ve never seen, and I’m and you’re talking and I’m reading, I’m not listening to you. And I don’t know, as an audience member what I’m supposed to do. And so the other piece of that, too, sometimes people have scripts, and I don’t think scripts are a bad thing. It’s good to prepare and think about what you want to say. But you got to get off the script. And it’s not necessarily being off the entire script. It’s okay to have notes. I think there’s this tendency that people are afraid to have notes in front of them. There’s this, people have this idea that I must be completely off script. You don’t have to do that. Having notes just shows you prepared, but be able to look at the customer once in a while. If I’m sitting here. Here’s my notes and I’m just reading them. It’s obvious that I’m not really here with you. I I’d rather talk about half the things I wanted to and engage with you then get to every single thing that I wrote down.

The Collaborator
Yeah, no, I know. For me, I like to have maybe like if I’m doing slides, I like to have one or two notes in front of me in terms of that’s the key point I want to hit regardless of where this goes. I just wanted to show you At that point, if I’ve done that it’s a success, move on. Same thing, if I’m giving a talk or whatever, just to remind me Don’t lose sight of this key point, even if I’m off in some other atmosphere.

Ed Jaffe
Exactly. And if you don’t get to everything, if it’s a good meeting, you will get another meeting. It’s okay. There’s, there’s this fear that we have to throw everything into a meeting, or it’s not going to go well. If you get that connection with the client, you’ll get the next meeting. So work on the connection, the emotional piece, because we’re emotional creatures, we make decisions emotionally. And then we justify them rationally, no one actually, no one actually fills out the RFP scorecard without any emotion behind it and uses that at the end and says, Oh, this vendor got one more point. No, you gave that vendor one more point that that’s how that works. And so that is speaking of emotions, that actually gets to one of the third demo fails that I think a lot about, which is what I call I’ve made a huge mistake, which is the Arrested Development reference. But it’s all about making the audience feel bad, which happens so often in ways that people don’t often think about. So let’s say you’re in the demo, and you start talking, john, I want to replay what we heard in discovery, you’re really terrible at your job, you can’t do anything, right, you can’t pull data, you can’t collaborate with your team. Here’s all the stuff you can’t do. And I get it, we’re trying to quote unquote, challenge the customer. But there’s a difference between I’m trying to show you where you can be, and I’m just making you feel bad. And there’s something about a third party telling you something that makes you feel even worse. It’s sort of I can make bold jokes. You mostly can make all jokes, but somebody who’s got a flatter hair, they can’t do it. If I can, you can’t. And so the customer told you, you still can’t say all those things to them, because they know that. So I’ve now spent the first five minutes just making somebody feel terrible about themselves. And then I expect them to want to buy from me. So why don’t I just take all that stuff? You know, john, I really want to focus today on helping you be more collaborative with your team. It sounds like that’s really important. same message just positive, right? I’m gonna make you feel bad.

The Collaborator
No, I love that ad. And let me say this, too. So we’re 32 minutes in. And I like to keep these close to 30. But what I’ll do is I’ll include a link to the full blog post with the podcast, because there’s a lot of great insight in there. I also feel bad because there’s about another hour and a half of stuff I’d love to talk to you about. So I may ask you to come back,

Ed Jaffe
anytime another time.

The Collaborator
Awesome. Let me ask you this, though. It’s just typically in and around demos, what you know what’s Is there a single point or a couple of points here? like john, I really want to get this across to people before we leave.

Ed Jaffe
Yeah, I think the most important thing, if I have one piece of advice is be yourself when you’re demoing in front of an audience. And I’m going to paraphrase the father of behavioral economics guy named Daniel Kahneman. And he says that the phrase pay attention is apt because we have a budget of attention. And if you try to go beyond that budget, then you fail. And so if you spend all of your energy, trying to be a certain way in front of an audience, trying to sort of wear a mask, if you will, since it’s October, I guess, COVID masks, but using bandwidth and now I’m spending so much time worrying about trying to be this person that I’m not and I’m not focusing on the audience. So the more you can just be yourself and create that rapport with the audience, the more comfortable you’re going to be. And people are going to pick up on that if when you try too hard, socially, we’ve all done it. We’ve been in situations where we try too hard. It always works against us, we never make those connections because people can tell we’re trying too hard. And so if you just go in the room, have a conversation with somebody odds are you’re going to get that next meeting far more than if you just spend the whole time focused on here’s what I want to say and I must say it I must be this way. Just have a conversation. We’re we’re humans just be human. I

The Collaborator
love that. I love that last set of thoughts there and I really do it. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you everybody for listening in. I will ask ed to come back it sounds like he’s on board with it because there’s a billion things honestly that we had on the on the on the list to talk about and I’m looking forward to touching base again with the headset.

Unknown Speaker
Anytime. All right, thank

The Collaborator
you so much. On the way out, enjoy the guitar.

Ed Jaffe
Take care of Google Play is that is that we asked me to do now cuz

The Collaborator
say yeah, give us a riff on the way out. All right, thank you so much. And thank you, everybody will

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