Jon Selig is a former seller turned comedian and sales trainer. He joined The Collaborator to explore why the process of writing jokes helps sales reps better learn about their buyers, why they matter to them, and how they can transform that into icebreakers that help them have more and better conversations.
We also explored:
1️⃣ How the process of writing jokes helps sellers trigger their buyers’ emotions so they can start more conversations.
2️⃣ How failure, self-awareness, and a desire to improve, breed improved results.
3️⃣ How investor timelines drive some irrational leader & seller behaviour which impact development & growth.
And more. Give a listen.
The Collaborator The collaborator and I’m here with funnyman, seller extraordinare, Jon Selig,The Collaborator john. I worry, that wall is amazing because it reminds me of like some old comedy club. I’m kind of picturing sitting back and being ready to watch your show.Jon Selig Not only do I live in a comedy club from the 80s, but there is a to German I’m here on a daily basis.The Collaborator That’s my kind of place then. So tell us a little bit about you know, who you are what you do.Jon Selig Yeah, um, my name is Jon Selig , there is no h and john, and if you deem there to be, it’s both silent and invisible. I live in Montreal, Canada, a hotbed of sales activity. And I say that with zero sincerity, we’re, we’re kind of like this as your place that doesn’t have much of a sales culture. But, you know, I started my career in sales in the early 2000s. making cold calls a spent about two and a half years with the big go, and I moved over to an Oracle partner, or for six and a half. And at that point, I was like, you know what the sales thing, I think I’ve mastered it, and I’m ready for a new challenge, one that involves making no money. And I started investing all my time and energy into performing and writing stand up comedy. And, and right away, I realized there’s all these parallels between being a sales rep who, you know, I wasn’t just an inside seller, I do a lot of field selling to you. And I was with an Oracle partner. And there’s a lot of parallels here, it’s a lot of people sitting with their arms folded, and I need to get them to open up to me, and I needed to connect with them really early. And so I saw these parallels and and to be honest, I, I’m a rare stand comedian, and that I enjoy money. And I decided to kind of, sort of take these two, two weird, seemingly disparate professions and merge them into one. And now what I do is show sales teams, how they could better relate to their buyers that show that they understand them through the joke writing process. I help them try and craft jokes that act as icebreakers and show insight. But even if we don’t write great jokes, we’re going down a journey to better understand who our buyers are, and what what struggles they face and how we can help them solve those struggles.The Collaborator I love that. You know what, you know, when you were an Oracle? And you know, even later working for that Oracle gold partner? Did you start to become aware of this desire to do comedy? And did you start to weave it into your approach to selling?Jon Selig So when I started at Oracle, and I was just, we call this our titles business development consultant, it’s a lot sounds a lot more important than it actually is. But I mean, it’s an important role. The SDR role, let’s face it, it’s the lifeblood pipeline in today’s it’s a hard roll, though.The Collaborator It’s a hard roll.Jon Selig It’s really hard. And when I first started, they hand us scripts, and they’d say, this is what you should you’re going to campaign on Oracle. You know, I procurement solution, which is like the Self Service procurement tool. And here’s the script. And here’s the pains that we’re struggling with. And here’s how you should present it. And after a while, like I just start to make it my own. Like, you know, some people just read it off the paper and memorize it. And I after a while, I was like, I need to connect with these people and working on level like the answer the phone, I have like five seconds to get their attention. And it started to I started to act a little bit more improv improvised, I guess, my humor, or change up out of saying I didn’t know how to write jokes back then. But I realized really early that like, these people are getting a lot of phone calls a day. And if I want them to take me seriously, I need to demonstrate some credibility really early on, and at the same time, not be boring and just make them smile a little bit. So while I didn’t do what I was, what I preach today, I would figure out ways to connect with them on a more human level, and stand out and just even acknowledge sometimes this is cold call or, or have some fun with the process. Yeah, so um,The Collaborator you know, because your rank, you get 5 million phone calls a day, you feel like hanging up as soon as you realize it’s a salesperson, so you have to do something right away to catch their attention. So you started discovering and playing with that yourself at that point, it sounds likeJon Selig no, because I looked around at my team and they’re, they’re just all making calls to and there’s Oracle has a whole other bunch of inside sales people making those calls. And there must be a billion other companies making those calls. So I need out as soon as I can. And so I just did the early days of being able to look up people’s, you know, data online and stuff like that. So if they were in a particular city, sure, I make the joke about the sports team winning the championship, like all that kind of, I call it fluff stuff to be honest. But it but it was a way to kind of to advance the conversation or at least At least started, if not eventsThe Collaborator like that, you know how. So that’s kind of fluff stuff you said? How does how does your more formal approach move beyond sort of the fluff stuff and make sure that that first five seconds is really, you know, resonates with the person. So they continue with the phoneJon Selig call. So as a as a guy who’s done a lot of press prospecting, you know, I was not this born sales guy, and I’m not a born comedian, but I believe that things can be learned. And something that really made sense to me very early on when I was at Oracle was to call him up and say, Hey, we’re Oracle, we have a database. Do you need that? You know, people say, so what? Who cares? Why don’t I know? Yeah. So so we were really taught to lead with pain. And really the difference between telling like fluff stuff kind of jokes like, Hey, this is a cold call, you know, kind of 27 seconds of your time, or one of these weird pattern interrupts, you might start the conversation, but you’re still at Ground Zero from a credibility perspective. So if I could call you up and say, Hey, john, I speak with a lot of sales leaders just like you and they’re all struggling with discounting. Long cycles, and slippage. And this saddens me because a sales executives problems shouldn’t sound like a big night trip to Walmart, all have said, three things that you’re struggling with. Yeah, first, like, whatever X amount of seconds, and then I come along and sort of, you know, surprise you with a bit of a twist at the end. Is it the world’s greatest joke? I don’t know, you smile. I don’t know if anyone listening right now is laughing. But it’s the point is I’m hooking them with some relatable challenges they’re struggling with, I started off with like, I speak with a lot of sales leaders just like you and they struggle with a, b and c, there should be some curiosity, on the other end, from the other person to say to, for them to go, what is this person gonna say next? Because Yeah, I do as a sales leader struggle with those with one or two or three of those three things.The Collaborator And those are valid points. And then you made me sort of chuckle and bring down my wall a little bit.Jon Selig Yeah. And there’s another level to it, where I can, you know, if we can take, you know, part of what I was taught, is you to paint pictures of what will happen if they don’t solve the problem. Right? Yeah. So you there’s a way to include sort of like that, that impact of not solving the problem into the punch line. So one of the companies I worked with is called event Moby. And, by the way, all the jokes that I help sales teams, right? They say it’s not funny if you have to explain it. But in this case, you have to explain it to be funny.The Collaborator I go through that all the time, because I share dad jokes with my kids on text all day long. Not all day, but a couple times a day. And usually if they go I don’t get it, I go crap, that was a mess.Jon Selig So you got to know your audience, right. And that’s a big part of what we do. But for example, this one group in one of my workshops wrote the joke. Because what they do event Moby is a software company, and they give customized apps to event planners to conferences, okay to give to all their attendees, and it’s got the agenda inside. So the challenge is that companies spend a lot of money on printing programs for conferences when we used to have a course. And so the joke that these guys wrote is the biggest challenge of printing programs for your conference is finding a big enough recycling bin to put them.The Collaborator That’s funny. That’s funny, right?Jon Selig Yeah. Clearly not. But well, no, I’mThe Collaborator thinking, if I was in the event space all day, every day, I got the point of the joke, and it would probably actually resonate with me.Jon Selig I mean, that’s it. That’s it. And I don’t, we don’t need to make everybody listening right now laugh, we’re just trying to demonstrate the approach to the structure that we’re going for. Yeah, of course. And the goal is to get your buyer to say that’s fine, because it’s true. We do struggle with that.The Collaborator I love that. So how does you know how does the job writing process help the seller? make that connection? You know, not specifically in the examples you just gave us? But how does that process that you take people through, help them better understand the pain, better hit the punch line of here’s, you know, here’s what happens if you don’t solve it, all of that, john?Jon Selig Yeah, I mean, think about if I’m out to make John Moore law, I’m gonna want to know everything about you. I’m gonna want to understand what it is you’re trying to achieve in your job. Yeah, what your role is how you’re measured. I’m gonna want to understand what your critical success factors are, ultimately, like, and ultimately understand what problems he’s struggling with. And how are those tied to how you’re, how you’re measured what those critical, critical success factors are, and also map all that to your emotions. What do you want? What do you need what frustrates you?The Collaborator What do you love that I love that? It’s not just what my boring goals are, it’s what actually motivates me. I love that.Jon Selig Correct. And at that point, if I know what you’re what you’re afraid of what keeps you up at night, as a result Vision maker. My job as a seller is to help kind of tap into that emotion to that fear to that anxiety. And I need to do it to figure out what’s the connecting tissue between me and you, you have all these problems. I have a solution. what’s what’s, what problem? Do I solve for you? And then how do I write a joke about that problem? To be that connecting tissue between between buyer and seller? Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely.The Collaborator I thought you were making crap up there for a few minutes, john, but it actually made sense when you got to the end.Jon Selig Yeah, it’s not in profit. I do. It’s, it’s,The Collaborator it’s actually it’s actually something that works. It’s interesting to white. Why do sellers? struggle? I mean, we got SDRs on the phone calling 100 people a day, in some exporter terrible cases, even if they’re calling 50 or 60 people a day? Why is it such a grind? And why did they struggle with becoming a little bit more in making those connections? I’ll phrase itJon Selig that way. What What time do we have until john? How long do you want me to go forThe Collaborator I’m gonna make myself a martini. Let’s sit down and just have a conversation. JOHN,Jon Selig I’ll tell you what, you can make me a martini and FedEx it to me. And I’ll still be going, Oh, look, I have a lot of theories on this is a guy who sold and wasn’t sold for 12 years and all and like, I wasn’t this guy who wanted to be in sales. And I think most of today’s young SDRs. And he’s I get the sense, there’s no empirical evidence, I get the sense, this wasn’t what they really dreamed about doing. Even in college. I think a lot of people end up in sales because like, I don’t know what else, they’re offering me a paycheck, I have to do what I can make phone calls and send emails or try and bring in revenue, right? I can learn that I can dance easy. That’s easy. And I think, look over the last 10 years with the proliferation of smartphones. You know, there’s so many niche business ideas that have cropped up so much software, there’s software for software developers, right? Like, there’s so much technology, there’s been so much investment in the space. And guess what every investor wants a return on their money really quickly. But at the same time, they also know that they have they have their own business model, right? We’re going to look at you guys for like four or five years or whatever that horizon is. You don’t make it. We’re just going to update with you. We’re hoping that a couple of youThe Collaborator a numbers game. Yeah.Jon Selig And so, you know, should a sales rep be making 100 dials a day? Is that really in the business’s best interest? It might be in the investors best interest? It might be in the founders best interest. But is it in the interest of everyone beneath? Maybe not the founder even but just, you know, like, are we giving reps room to grow and breathe and develop at a rate that makes sense? Or are we burning them out because of someone else’s agenda? And I mean, there’s probably gonna be a bunch of investors, you don’t like what to say. But I’m always curious to know that if like, if businesses were given a little bit more rope to grow and develop, and let the people grow and develop and figure things out on their own timeline, versus an investor’s timeline, where would those businesses be today? Well, they to figure things out, if they were given one more year, a little bit more rope. So I think it’s hard for them to make connections, because they’re under a lot of pressure. They’re not being trained adequately, because there’s, we can’t invest money in training, we just have to throw them in the pool. They’ve never had their buyers jobs, they’ve never used the software that they’re selling, or the tech that they’re selling. They’ve never struggled with those problems. And so there’s a relatable they’ve ever worked in the industry. There’s like this relatability gap, they’re terrified. They’re 24, I gotta call up a CFO, you got to call up, Chief HR officer, I don’t really understand what those guys do. AndThe Collaborator so many of the problems you net, so many of the problems they’re trying to, there’s such a tendency with SDRs, whatever the job title is, to bring them in young, burn them out, get the next set, do it all over again, as opposed to making it something where you actually teach them just like you said, how to do it, well have a learn and grow. And I think the company is going to be much better off if you’re trying to make 20 great calls a day or 10 great calls a day.Jon Selig Yeah, I mean, I think something that we need to realize is that when I was in technology sales, my job wasn’t to be a salesperson, right? My job is to help them solve problems and what is what problem solving, we call them consultants. And so, you know, Oracle solves a gazillion business problems for the largest companies on the planet. But if you’re a niche, SAS and you sell, I don’t know, something to insurance carriers that helps them, you know, offer better customer service. I mean, your job is to really understand that little that little world inside and out and become conversational, and be able to interpret what your buyer is saying when you’re running a discovery or even if you get them on the cold call and you trigger them with One of the jokes that I helped you, right? Yeah, or just spill their guts because they’re like, that’s funny because it’s true. You’d be able to document it, interpret it and understand Can I help this person solve that problem? And I think that I think that there’s and this is just my take, I get the impression a lot of people are glossing over, you know that that that knowledge and fluidity of conversation ability to master the subject matter expertise, I get the impression that that’s being tossed out the window. In the in theThe Collaborator too often it is, I think,Jon Selig yeah, in the rush to hit metrics and show investors, we’re hitting all the metrics. But so what, who cares if you’re getting metrics? If you’re making 100? Bad calls? Why, like, why is that better than 20? good ones?The Collaborator Well, I always have the argument or not the argument, but I always tell people that you know, think about mq, ELLs in marketing to sales. Do you want 1000? leads from sales? Or do you want 50 really good ones that meet meet your requirements to potentially buy your solution. And but the problem is, everybody intuitively gets it. But they want to fall back to the models that they’ve used for years. And it’s the same thing on the SDRs. I get it if we invest the time and the money, and but nobody, few people are willing to invest the time in really doing it.Jon Selig I’ve just been looking at like, I get asked all the time, what’s the ROI of what I do? Yeah, prove it. Like I’m like, Well, I’m teaching people to understand who their audiences are on teaching them to think about why they matter to their buyers versus just pitching a tagline from a market like the market and came up with, yeah, teaching them to find new ways to say things and teaching them to present enough confidence and teaching them to understand their buyers. I don’t know, is that a value or not? Like, what’s the ROI of teaching your five year old to you are your three year old with a fork? Like I don’t know, like you, it’s up to you to figure that out.The Collaborator I skipped forks, they were too dangerous for my kids back in the day, I just went straight to spoons.Jon Selig So they was fun. And that’s why one day, they will be having a conversation with me just like you.The Collaborator Probably, you know, it’s it’s interesting. How do you answer that, john? Because to me, it seems like there’s an obvious answer. You do the training. And afterwards, I bet you’re going to see, I would think you would see better rates in terms of calls to meetings or something along those lines, just by being a little bit smarter and how you have those conversations.Jon Selig Yeah, I mean, look, my theory is if we write one great joke, yeah. jokes, like there’s all this value that goes into writing the jokes. And we’ve already gone through that. Yeah. All right, one great joke, that everyone’s not everyone. But let’s say a third of the team says, You know what, I’m going to start all my cold calls with that, I can do that. Or I’m going to include that in all my email sequences. Now, I always say to my buyers, like, why don’t we measure this? And they’re like, ooh, no, like, the moment you put it back on them to try and measure ROI together. They don’t always want it. So it’s a fascinating double edged sword of a question.The Collaborator I see that a lot, too.Jon Selig I can’t measure it. Like, you got to measure it. And we got to do it together. And they’re like, Oh, no, that sounds like work. So they want to, they want to hear something that they want to hear. Or they just want to push you and like challenge you. But it’s like the moment you throw it back at them, they run away and hide under a table.The Collaborator There’s certainly businesses that do that. And I see that too, all the time. So let me ask you this, john, its sales and in comedy, sometimes you bomb. I don’t know how often you bomb. But I would be scared to death to stand up on that stage as a comedian because I just feel like a bomb. And sellers certainly bombed to you know if you talk about the SDR role, how many people actually talk to you and how many people actually go to the meeting for the next step? How do you recover from that? You know, when you think about mindset and and just sort of all of that, how do you how should people think about that situation and how to move forward from it?Jon Selig Look, I think it comes down to passion. And I think whether you’re in sales or you’re in stand up you need to have passion for failure. A joke didn’t land see i thought i bombed right now I’m feeling right now and just so we’re clear jokes, they’re like grown up rich kids. They don’t work. So with that said,The Collaborator that one is funny firsts.Jon Selig First one No, but that first one was a joke I used to tell on stage when a when a when a joke would bomb hard and I mentioned to my my audience Hey, guys, I like to tell them I have two business degrees. And when a joke wouldn’t land I go Look guys, I just wanna let you guys know that it like even whether you have to visit degrees or not all this takes like you don’t need to visit degrees to Santa’s calm. He always takes his passion for failure and that would get them back. So if it didn’t work, and that’s okay. But the point is, it comes down to reps. It comes down to failing, it comes down to being okay with it. Because whether you’re in sales, whether you’re in stand up, you are going to fail a lot. The trick is to learn from the failure. I mean, we have tools like, like Gong and chorus, go back and listen to your calls, like I’ve recorded every stand up set of mine on my phone, the video, not just the audio, but the video. And early on when I bought Of course, it crushed me. It just it hurts so much. But I learned so much more by watching the sets where I bombed. Then the sets were the jokes, I knew we’re working, we’re getting over with the crowd like they were connecting, because it’s one of those jokes work. But, you know, open mics exist in, in stand up for a reason. It’s for you to get on a show. It’s for you to go test your ideas out. And there is no open mic for sellers except maybe when practicing with each otherThe Collaborator say role playing.Jon Selig Yeah, but of course people don’t like roleplay I think. I don’t know how most companies roleplay today, but I think it’s just even a one on one roleplay with your with your peer is not intimidating, like versus doing in a full room. Like when I was at Oracle? Yeah, let’s do in front of the full room. It’s scary. Like no one wants to do that. But if you’re doing it with your with your coworker, you know, help each other out and maybe try something new.The Collaborator Yeah, exactly.Jon Selig But I guess the other way to do it is pick like 20 accounts, which you don’t care about. And maybe just call them up and fail and record it and listen back to it and figure it out. Why did this guy not care? Forget the fact that maybe they’re not a good fit for what we do. But maybe they in theory could buy but we’re not interested. We’re not bad. It’s just that we can live without them saying no, we can live without them saying yes, figure out why the psychology didn’t connect with the buyer, like go listen to your call recording. Figure out did that what was their reaction to your opener? So we have to learn from that failure. And I don’t mind being told no, I don’t mind. If someone doesn’t laugh. We have to learn how to handle that objection. We have to learn how to handle the objections. From a comedian perspective, the silence is the objection. And that that other joke I used on you the grownup, rich kids joke. That’s my other. That’s the other way I handle that objection. So it’s all about just being prepared to deal with it, it’s going to happen. And you know, we’re never going to hear Yes, all the time. And if you’re, if you expect that sales are comedy, you’re in for a rude awakening.The Collaborator I like the advice to about going back and just listening. When you when you bomb, you know, in sales, we’re gonna bomb. Let’s say it’s five times out of 10. It’s really higher than that we know. But at least on those failure times, listen to the calls. You’re right. It’s a great bit of advice and try to learn from that. I also think the role plays, maybe it’s just a one on one, you know, two people practicing together. That’s really great. And I don’t think enough people do that either. There’s always this discomfort with, I don’t want to sound like an idiot in front of my teammates. But I think that’s the best way to go forward. So mazing advice, john, really appreciate that. You know, let me ask you one other thing. Let me let me switch gears a little bit. You’re a one person operation in the middle of COVID? Uh huh. In the middle of Montreal seller’s paradise, like you said at the beginning, how on earth? Let me ask it differently. What advice would you share with people because you are demonstrating, getting up every day, making it happen, whether success or failure comes your way, and just continuing to move the Ford business every day? You know, other than what I just said about just continuing and pushing it forward? What advice do you have to share with anybody?Jon Selig Well, I mean, look, it’s, I have a lot of stupidity and stuff. Yes.The Collaborator We all do. Yeah, we all do.Jon Selig For quality. It’s like refuse to lose. But also, to be quite frank, like I, I’ve been doing what I do just over three years. And I’ve always received positive feedback from people I spoke to, they didn’t fully always understand it. But they’ve always it’s certainly going to open mic. And there’s 10 people in the room, and they don’t want to be there and you deliver some new joke. And like a couple of people smile, but they’re not laughing. Yeah, it’s all because it’s come out of my mouth wrong. And I realized, like, to be honest, like, over time, after over three years of doing what I do, and getting feedback from my buyers, I’ve realized where the winds are with my buyers. And so there’s a few things it’s all about altering your message, tweaking it, and going back and re delivering it to the marketplace. That’s number one. Number two, we have all the tools that we need to market ourselves to create content and to push it out there on our phones and laptops. Right? Yeah, film ourselves. We can edit it. We can. We can use our brains to write good blog posts, to get our message out there to keep learning to keep growing, keep evolving and to figure out if I’m not connecting with my buyers, what what do they want. And so it’s this constant evolution and hustle, which you know, but but with enough power feedback. Like, if I tell the joke and nobody smiles, I might go, maybe I’ll never try that again. But if two people smile is the first time I told the joke, I’m like, we keep working on that joke. And the next time I go tell the joke, I get five out of 10 chuckling Yes. And then the third time I practice it, I iterated I rehearse it again. And then the next time I tell it, I get eight at a time not chuckling but laughing. And we have to just keep honing and iterating and being reflective and self critical and taking people’s constructive criticism. And, you know, it’s it’s a hustle as a solopreneur. And yeah, it’s exhausting. You’re honest, it’s it suits me. I don’t know.The Collaborator Yeah, right now seems like it’s probably a I hate looking at positive signs in the middle of a global pandemic. But right now, for what you do, there must be people who are seeing, hey, we need we need a lot of creative new approaches is business looking pretty good for you?Jon Selig Yeah, I gotta say my pipeline is as awesome. And it’s been a, you know, I’ve got a got to close a bunch of them to be quite honest. But there’s a there’s an interest because look, before the pandemic, if you want to know the truth, Luke people listening, because I’ve been telling lies the whole time. So I’ll just be honest. What I was gonna say john was, though, that like, the pandemic is, has really changed the dynamic of what I do. It used to be john, we’re having a sales meeting, or qbr, or a training is going to be on this date. This time, we have this amount of time on the agenda. Can you be here? Great. That’s all the time you have. But now that everybody’s working from home, there are no in person sales meetings, it’s allowed me to be really flexible with how I deliver it and or what time intervals like we can break up the learning over multiple weeks, multiple sessions? Do I have to give it to the whole sales team? No, maybe only a third of them want to go through what I do. So there’s a lot of flexibility at this point. And as a result, until as we create more offers and speak to more sales leaders and tailor something to them and their team and their needs.The Collaborator Good. I love what you’re doing. Because such a unique way to get to the heart of being a great salesperson. I mean, you’ve gone covering the pain and doing all those things. And you’re just taking such a unique approach to it, john, that I get excited every time we have chatted, and I love everything you do. And so I think that’s amazing. We’re coming up on the 30 minute mark. So I’m gonna jump ahead. Is there anything we should have talked about? JOHN, that we that we simply didn’t hit upon? They like, hey, I want to share this.Jon Selig I do have inside information on a vaccine is coming out. And that’s up to you if you want to know that information. Now. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, if we pass Oh, look at that. It’s 229. And those that information, or 228? Um, what else were we supposed to talk about? Uh, not entirely certain if you want to know the truth.The Collaborator Okay, no, that’s fine, too. This was great, john, it was a lot of fun. And I, I would encourage anybody out there who’s listening, you know, who’s looking for somebody unique to help them with the rescue ESCO, or their sales, training it, you’re uncovering all the important things, you’re just doing it in a way that isn’t as formal and stuffy, in my opinion, which, which to me often leads to more openness to receiving the information and willingness to give it a try. So people should definitely reach out to LinkedIn is the best orJon Selig is the best. I do want to share one more thing before we’re, of course, you triggered something in me. Um, I think a major challenge, especially with younger sales reps is again, they’re they’re terrified. And they won’t admit it always. But they are scared. Like when someone picks up the phone, it’s, I mean, I still get it even when I’m prospecting and I’m calling up people that I’m connected with on LinkedIn, I put a lot of content, they still I feel they should know who I am. But sometimes people are like, I don’t know who you are. And I even acknowledge like, what can I do on LinkedIn, I hit the funny joke. And so I guess what I’m trying to say is like, I think a lot of sales reps are terrified that whether again, right, yeah. And I think a challenge is they don’t know how to articulate the messaging that they’re being given. In comedy. We have this expression, and it happens after about eight years of performing like a lot. They call it finding your own voice, and being able to be confident who you are on stage. And you’re not like I’ve been doing comedy nine years, I was doing it like on average three times a week. And only recently did I start to feel more comfortable and less kind of, can I curse? Can I can I give a little verse again, like a little non give a shovel about things like yeah, we get long enough. If they don’t like it, it’s fine. It’s just one set. It’s just like, it’s just one phone call. Someone was like it. But I learned I wouldn’t say I found my voice sung with comedy but at the same time I learned to loosen up. And I think sales reps takes them a while to find their voice. And I think they need to be empowered to do that. So they They’re not so scripted, that they understand who their buyers are, why you’re in business, like why they hired you? Because someone gave that company a lack of money, because they saw an opportunity. But do they understand why they’re in that chair to help fulfill the vision of why someone gave them money? That makes sense. SoThe Collaborator important?Jon Selig Yeah, I think I think reps really need to be encouraged to be a little more creative. To to master subject, Master language break away from buzzwords. And I think that’s all goes a long way towards them becoming more confident individuals.The Collaborator Yeah, I like that. Because I think the whole churn and burn, you know, approach on SDRs, bring him in and take him give me a year kick him out, you know, is so horrible in so many ways, as human beings is terrible, but I also don’t think it’s healthy for the business. So there’s not a lot of great points in there, john, I really appreciate it, man.Jon Selig And the last point I’ll throw out there is Yeah, LinkedIn is a great place to connect. I’d love to do that. And of course, Jon Selig calm. No h and john, j. o n se Li G, been doing a lot of fundraiser stand up over the last few months to raise money for nonprofits helping COVID relief efforts and all kinds of different ways that I could be helping sales teams from, from an engagement perspective, team building, but also from a messaging and skills development.The Collaborator Reach out this guy’s funny. That’s all I’m gonna say for my last word, john, thank you so much. Thank you so much. And thank you, everybody for listening in. definitely reach out to john, and we’ll talk to you later. Thanks, john.