Phil Chew was formerly the Sales Skills Learning Directory at Refinitiv and Thomson Reuters and is now taking on the world working as a consultant at BPM Works and delivering training with Global Performance Group.

In this conversation with The Collaborator, Phil focused on retention strategies and tactics any business should consider using.  Amongst the topics covered include:

1️⃣ When does the retention strategy/process begin?

2️⃣ How the retention process works with account planning.

3️⃣The role of retention playbooks.

Give a listen.


0:00:00.160,0:00:03.520 the collaborator here with phil chu phil0:00:03.199,0:00:06.240 how0:00:03.520,0:00:07.520 are you today ah good thanks yeah0:00:06.240,0:00:09.599 despite the weather0:00:07.520,0:00:11.840 very great in london because you’re0:00:09.599,0:00:14.240 you’re just southeast of london right0:00:11.840,0:00:16.160 that’s right place called seven oaks uh0:00:14.240,0:00:18.000 in kent’s the garden of england0:00:16.160,0:00:19.520 it’s probably the sunniest place under0:00:18.000,0:00:22.240 the sun right i mean0:00:19.520,0:00:23.840 england is known for its great sunny0:00:22.240,0:00:27.279 beach weather0:00:23.840,0:00:30.880 of course i wish i wish it was just a0:00:27.279,0:00:32.320 little bit warmer hey do us a favor0:00:30.880,0:00:35.600 though before we get started tell us a0:00:32.320,0:00:35.600 little bit about yourself please0:00:35.760,0:00:39.760 well i i i don’t want to bore you0:00:37.440,0:00:41.600 because my my with my age i’ve obviously0:00:39.760,0:00:43.680 been through a number of transitions but0:00:41.600,0:00:45.760 there’s basically two buckets where i’ve0:00:43.680,0:00:47.440 been before and the first one is0:00:45.760,0:00:49.200 sales sales management for about 200:00:47.440,0:00:51.120 years and that was mostly with0:00:49.200,0:00:54.160 information businesses0:00:51.120,0:00:57.360 um and a couple of startups that that0:00:54.160,0:00:59.520 i was involved in and then the second0:00:57.360,0:01:02.559 phase really around learning development0:00:59.520,0:01:04.080 um a lot of sales skills training0:01:02.559,0:01:06.000 throughout out there in the in the0:01:04.080,0:01:07.680 classroom but also0:01:06.000,0:01:09.119 we always got dragged into a lot of0:01:07.680,0:01:12.000 really interesting stuff like0:01:09.119,0:01:12.960 competency assessments uh messaging0:01:12.000,0:01:14.960 insight creation0:01:12.960,0:01:16.560 sales playbooks you know stuff like that0:01:14.960,0:01:16.960 and stuff one of the time i spent with0:01:16.560,0:01:20.240 uh0:01:16.960,0:01:22.240 reuters the news agency or financial0:01:20.240,0:01:23.119 information business uh which became0:01:22.240,0:01:26.400 thompson reuters0:01:23.119,0:01:27.759 and is now definitive but uh currently0:01:26.400,0:01:30.079 i’m freelance but0:01:27.759,0:01:31.840 um working with a couple of great0:01:30.079,0:01:34.799 companies bpm works who0:01:31.840,0:01:36.720 who you know uh who create uh work on0:01:34.799,0:01:38.240 like the big team cam platform and0:01:36.720,0:01:39.840 create sales playbooks and selling0:01:38.240,0:01:41.280 knowledge and then a training company0:01:39.840,0:01:44.079 called global performance group0:01:41.280,0:01:44.720 gpg which is some really good content0:01:44.079,0:01:47.840 and0:01:44.720,0:01:50.000 facilitation around around real deals0:01:47.840,0:01:52.880 and making the best out of them0:01:50.000,0:01:54.399 how interesting how interesting you know0:01:52.880,0:01:55.920 let me dive into it though so0:01:54.399,0:01:57.439 i know we want to talk about retention0:01:55.920,0:02:00.640 today yeah and0:01:57.439,0:02:02.560 and you know i read somewhere um that0:02:00.640,0:02:05.119 you really think that businesses need a0:02:02.560,0:02:07.040 retention process0:02:05.119,0:02:09.119 uh and i don’t disagree with that but0:02:07.040,0:02:11.440 i’m curious on your thoughts about0:02:09.119,0:02:12.720 you know how do you sell this and why do0:02:11.440,0:02:15.360 you believe0:02:12.720,0:02:18.160 organizations need yet another process0:02:15.360,0:02:19.760 why is this so important0:02:18.160,0:02:21.280 i i think i think it’s important because0:02:19.760,0:02:24.319 it matters massively0:02:21.280,0:02:26.879 to revenue um not really0:02:24.319,0:02:28.800 new revenue but although that is a great0:02:26.879,0:02:30.080 source of new revenue is your existing0:02:28.800,0:02:32.080 customers probably0:02:30.080,0:02:33.200 80 of your revenue for an existing0:02:32.080,0:02:35.920 business0:02:33.200,0:02:37.760 mature business they’ll get 80 of their0:02:35.920,0:02:39.280 their new revenue from about 25 their0:02:37.760,0:02:41.120 existing ones you’ve really got to work0:02:39.280,0:02:45.200 those existing customers0:02:41.120,0:02:47.200 but why a process so um0:02:45.200,0:02:49.120 because i think i think there’s a lack0:02:47.200,0:02:51.519 of clarity about what0:02:49.120,0:02:53.360 each person should be doing in in0:02:51.519,0:02:53.920 account teams or customer success0:02:53.360,0:02:57.040 management0:02:53.920,0:02:58.159 groups in order to actually manage the0:02:57.040,0:03:00.480 customer0:02:58.159,0:03:01.920 to maximize the value they can they0:03:00.480,0:03:03.599 receive from the solutions that you0:03:01.920,0:03:07.440 provide0:03:03.599,0:03:08.560 and if you don’t have a clarity about0:03:07.440,0:03:12.800 what’s going on0:03:08.560,0:03:14.720 in the customer world post purchase0:03:12.800,0:03:17.599 then it’s really difficult to align0:03:14.720,0:03:20.879 yourself to what the customer needs0:03:17.599,0:03:22.159 so a process may feel0:03:20.879,0:03:23.680 like a straight jacket to a lot of0:03:22.159,0:03:24.720 people but actually it provides from0:03:23.680,0:03:26.640 many people0:03:24.720,0:03:28.480 sales process and the retention process0:03:26.640,0:03:30.080 provides guide rails that0:03:28.480,0:03:32.640 really help them do the right things at0:03:30.080,0:03:36.000 the right time with the right people0:03:32.640,0:03:38.319 um well yeah and i know i’m a0:03:36.000,0:03:40.480 believer of the fact that there’s a you0:03:38.319,0:03:42.080 know customer journey that takes place0:03:40.480,0:03:43.920 after they buy0:03:42.080,0:03:46.640 and you know there’s certain stages of0:03:43.920,0:03:48.720 adoption of the products they bought0:03:46.640,0:03:50.560 seeing results and then there’s0:03:48.720,0:03:53.599 conversations hopefully about0:03:50.560,0:03:56.000 upsell cross-sell and hopefully renewal0:03:53.599,0:03:57.120 in any sort of subscription business but0:03:56.000,0:04:00.239 what does this0:03:57.120,0:04:01.519 process help us understand what what the0:04:00.239,0:04:04.080 process really0:04:01.519,0:04:05.519 is what what are we talking about here0:04:04.080,0:04:06.239 well it’s very very much like a sales0:04:05.519,0:04:07.599 process you0:04:06.239,0:04:10.239 you’re trying to understand where is the0:04:07.599,0:04:11.840 customer in there thinking and different0:04:10.239,0:04:14.159 customers and different propositions0:04:11.840,0:04:17.680 will have different life cycles so0:04:14.159,0:04:20.320 if i’m buying a uh a locomotive0:04:17.680,0:04:21.759 for a railway i’ve got a 25 year life0:04:20.320,0:04:23.520 cycle of that of that but0:04:21.759,0:04:26.479 but decisions might get made in five0:04:23.520,0:04:28.639 years time about how do i replace this0:04:26.479,0:04:29.600 a lot of the software solutions you come0:04:28.639,0:04:33.360 across uh0:04:29.600,0:04:36.320 in with the um software as a service0:04:33.360,0:04:38.720 there’s much more rapid transition from0:04:36.320,0:04:41.360 is this working yes no0:04:38.720,0:04:43.280 right we better go and change it and so0:04:41.360,0:04:43.919 i identify how does a customer think0:04:43.280,0:04:45.600 about this0:04:43.919,0:04:47.520 how long does it take them before they0:04:45.600,0:04:48.320 turn around and say this isn’t working0:04:47.520,0:04:50.800 let’s fit0:04:48.320,0:04:53.120 let’s change it uh you know when are0:04:50.800,0:04:55.919 there review meetings0:04:53.120,0:04:56.639 so without getting it yeah it can get0:04:55.919,0:04:58.400 complicated0:04:56.639,0:04:59.919 uh sometimes you’ll have to adapt yeah0:04:58.400,0:05:01.680 you’ve got to adapt it to the customer0:04:59.919,0:05:03.039 and if the customer runs a particular0:05:01.680,0:05:05.440 process0:05:03.039,0:05:07.039 understand that process work with it and0:05:05.440,0:05:09.520 and maximize the benefit0:05:07.039,0:05:11.520 to the customer and to yourselves i love0:05:09.520,0:05:13.759 it i know you and i were chatting before0:05:11.520,0:05:15.759 we went live a little bit about0:05:13.759,0:05:17.680 you know the customer success role0:05:15.759,0:05:18.240 account managers and all that kind of0:05:17.680,0:05:20.080 stuff0:05:18.240,0:05:21.840 and selfishly i wanted to bring it back0:05:20.080,0:05:23.199 because we hadn’t finished talking about0:05:21.840,0:05:24.880 it so0:05:23.199,0:05:26.560 yes this is john trying to learn0:05:24.880,0:05:27.600 something in the process too which i0:05:26.560,0:05:29.840 always do0:05:27.600,0:05:31.600 um you know i was telling you phil0:05:29.840,0:05:32.639 though you know so we have customer0:05:31.600,0:05:35.360 success0:05:32.639,0:05:37.280 and their role is really about trying to0:05:35.360,0:05:40.400 ensure that the customer0:05:37.280,0:05:41.280 successfully adopts successfully0:05:40.400,0:05:43.360 achieves their0:05:41.280,0:05:45.360 business goals for which they bought the0:05:43.360,0:05:47.520 product and then we do have the account0:05:45.360,0:05:48.560 manager role which is really responsible0:05:47.520,0:05:50.880 for sort of0:05:48.560,0:05:52.639 the the business conversations around0:05:50.880,0:05:55.520 renewals and retention0:05:52.639,0:05:56.240 you know the finance pieces as well and0:05:55.520,0:05:58.080 and0:05:56.240,0:05:59.520 i i was kind of wanted to ask you about0:05:58.080,0:06:01.199 that and let you react to it a little0:05:59.520,0:06:02.240 bit because we were starting to have0:06:01.199,0:06:04.479 that conversation0:06:02.240,0:06:07.360 when we realized we should go live and0:06:04.479,0:06:10.080 i’m curious to hear your thinking0:06:07.360,0:06:12.160 so we’ve been in organizations where we0:06:10.080,0:06:15.039 have those two roles0:06:12.160,0:06:16.400 and you do wonder so who’s in charge and0:06:15.039,0:06:18.800 if they report to different0:06:16.400,0:06:20.160 in different directions that it comes0:06:18.800,0:06:23.199 back at the top but0:06:20.160,0:06:24.639 but on the ground for the customer it0:06:23.199,0:06:26.000 may be a bit of a fragmented0:06:24.639,0:06:27.840 relationship0:06:26.000,0:06:29.199 uh and and one of the one of the0:06:27.840,0:06:30.720 challenges you have with the customer0:06:29.199,0:06:31.280 success manager role which is absolutely0:06:30.720,0:06:34.479 critical0:06:31.280,0:06:36.080 is uh are they truly responsible for the0:06:34.479,0:06:38.240 whole retention and of0:06:36.080,0:06:39.520 as you’ve described it they often are0:06:38.240,0:06:40.960 not0:06:39.520,0:06:43.039 and where you end up with a customer0:06:40.960,0:06:45.360 success manager might well be your0:06:43.039,0:06:46.240 you’re focused on the level of0:06:45.360,0:06:47.919 implementation0:06:46.240,0:06:49.520 getting results from whatever it is0:06:47.919,0:06:51.840 you’ve installed yeah0:06:49.520,0:06:52.800 fantastic but but those people as we0:06:51.840,0:06:54.800 know from the data0:06:52.800,0:06:56.400 you know there’s 10.2 people involved in0:06:54.800,0:06:58.639 the decision making process0:06:56.400,0:07:00.240 there’s probably even more involved in0:06:58.639,0:07:01.120 uh stakeholders and customer0:07:00.240,0:07:03.199 stakeholders involved0:07:01.120,0:07:04.560 in the renewal process i really want to0:07:03.199,0:07:07.520 do with this0:07:04.560,0:07:09.360 um and but those are not the people who0:07:07.520,0:07:11.840 ultimately will make the decision0:07:09.360,0:07:13.440 the decision will be made because it0:07:11.840,0:07:15.440 goes back to those senior people again0:07:13.440,0:07:16.880 do we want to keep this crm system do we0:07:15.440,0:07:18.639 want to keep this0:07:16.880,0:07:20.000 content management system and so on will0:07:18.639,0:07:22.720 be made at a different level0:07:20.000,0:07:24.479 now if your customer success manager is0:07:22.720,0:07:27.759 doing great0:07:24.479,0:07:29.759 value at the at one level is that really0:07:27.759,0:07:32.000 understood by those at the higher level0:07:29.759,0:07:33.280 and does it translate into those kpis0:07:32.000,0:07:35.680 that matter to those guys0:07:33.280,0:07:37.280 because if you’re not hitting their kpis0:07:35.680,0:07:41.919 what matters to them0:07:37.280,0:07:43.520 um it’s all it’s going nowhere and i0:07:41.919,0:07:45.919 it was interesting recently i don’t know0:07:43.520,0:07:48.319 if you saw it the the gartner0:07:45.919,0:07:49.280 ceb research probably about two three0:07:48.319,0:07:52.479 years ago0:07:49.280,0:07:53.039 about about retention and that was quite0:07:52.479,0:07:54.879 striking0:07:53.039,0:07:57.039 part of the reason why it sort of0:07:54.879,0:08:00.319 re-energized my thinking but the0:07:57.039,0:08:02.639 the it showed that you can0:08:00.319,0:08:04.000 and a lot of companies do this uh in0:08:02.639,0:08:05.759 order to improve retention0:08:04.000,0:08:07.599 let’s give them more service better0:08:05.759,0:08:08.400 service lots of it flood them with0:08:07.599,0:08:10.080 people0:08:08.400,0:08:11.280 you know upgrade our systems well0:08:10.080,0:08:12.879 actually there’s a point where it0:08:11.280,0:08:14.319 plateaus and it doesn’t matter how much0:08:12.879,0:08:16.400 more service you give them0:08:14.319,0:08:19.120 it’s not going to change their view on0:08:16.400,0:08:22.240 whether they stay with you or go0:08:19.120,0:08:23.680 um you can have too much of a good thing0:08:22.240,0:08:26.080 perhaps but0:08:23.680,0:08:26.879 but actually what was interesting was0:08:26.080,0:08:28.960 that the0:08:26.879,0:08:30.000 accompanying data which said if the0:08:28.960,0:08:32.800 account team0:08:30.000,0:08:34.560 is continuing to bring new ideas0:08:32.800,0:08:37.519 continuing to0:08:34.560,0:08:38.880 challenge you if you like on on on what0:08:37.519,0:08:40.080 they are doing and whether that’s the0:08:38.880,0:08:42.719 right thing0:08:40.080,0:08:44.000 that was massively correlated with0:08:42.719,0:08:47.360 retention0:08:44.000,0:08:48.080 um as almost as much as service itself0:08:47.360,0:08:50.399 so0:08:48.080,0:08:51.600 you can’t just do service you have to do0:08:50.399,0:08:53.200 service0:08:51.600,0:08:55.839 plus i’m not going to call it sales but0:08:53.200,0:08:57.360 plus continue to work with the customer0:08:55.839,0:08:57.760 to help them build a better business and0:08:57.360,0:09:00.240 that0:08:57.760,0:09:00.880 that would be a sort of mantra i think0:09:00.240,0:09:03.760 you have to0:09:00.880,0:09:05.360 you have across account managers and0:09:03.760,0:09:06.320 customer success managers working0:09:05.360,0:09:08.560 together0:09:06.320,0:09:10.320 it’s interesting because i’ve always0:09:08.560,0:09:13.519 viewed it um0:09:10.320,0:09:16.640 retention in this way retention begins0:09:13.519,0:09:18.320 before you sign the deal originally0:09:16.640,0:09:20.000 because hopefully up front you’ve0:09:18.320,0:09:21.600 defined what the pain points are what0:09:20.000,0:09:23.360 the goals are0:09:21.600,0:09:25.040 and along the way you’re not simply0:09:23.360,0:09:26.160 focused on adoption although it’s0:09:25.040,0:09:27.920 important0:09:26.160,0:09:29.680 you try to reinforce how are we doing0:09:27.920,0:09:31.440 against these goals0:09:29.680,0:09:33.360 and if their goals are changing you’re0:09:31.440,0:09:35.519 trying to reinforce that0:09:33.360,0:09:36.640 and so every step of the way it’s not0:09:35.519,0:09:38.240 simply about0:09:36.640,0:09:40.000 are you using my products but are you0:09:38.240,0:09:42.640 hitting the goals0:09:40.000,0:09:44.160 for which you bought it yeah i’m curious0:09:42.640,0:09:47.279 on your thoughts so phil0:09:44.160,0:09:49.279 um is is there a better or smoother way0:09:47.279,0:09:51.760 as you think about the process0:09:49.279,0:09:53.440 as as you think about it how do we do a0:09:51.760,0:09:54.080 really good job of tying that sort of0:09:53.440,0:09:56.560 from that0:09:54.080,0:09:57.519 point of initial signature all the way0:09:56.560,0:09:59.440 through and i’m not0:09:57.519,0:10:03.120 talking about every little step but but0:09:59.440,0:10:03.120 how should we be thinking about this0:10:03.519,0:10:07.279 uh well well i think fundamentally it0:10:05.600,0:10:10.720 comes down to value0:10:07.279,0:10:12.079 so one of the difficulties for retention0:10:10.720,0:10:15.120 starts with the sale0:10:12.079,0:10:16.079 yeah and it is around yes they’ve signed0:10:15.120,0:10:18.320 up for something0:10:16.079,0:10:20.240 we sort of know what they want but do we0:10:18.320,0:10:22.640 are there metrics that says this is the0:10:20.240,0:10:25.760 value that they are expecting0:10:22.640,0:10:27.440 um sometimes and sometimes we bury them0:10:25.760,0:10:29.839 so we don’t have to deal with it0:10:27.440,0:10:31.360 oh well we yeah or we didn’t know we0:10:29.839,0:10:32.640 just got we just had a great product the0:10:31.360,0:10:36.000 guy bought it0:10:32.640,0:10:38.000 and uh and now we’re delivering it and0:10:36.000,0:10:40.079 is it actually what value did he expect0:10:38.000,0:10:41.360 was it a metric or was it a feel-good0:10:40.079,0:10:43.519 thing0:10:41.360,0:10:45.519 either way you’ve got to know what the0:10:43.519,0:10:46.800 value is so you’ve0:10:45.519,0:10:48.320 you should know that at the end of the0:10:46.800,0:10:49.040 sales process you should have absolute0:10:48.320,0:10:51.040 clarity0:10:49.040,0:10:52.720 ideally you’ve agreed yeah0:10:51.040,0:10:54.959 implementation by this time0:10:52.720,0:10:56.640 this is the impact it’s going to make0:10:54.959,0:10:58.959 this is the roi0:10:56.640,0:11:00.399 um and then the process of retention0:10:58.959,0:11:01.839 starts the first step in the process is0:11:00.399,0:11:03.839 you go back to the customer and say0:11:01.839,0:11:06.000 well did we deliver what we what you0:11:03.839,0:11:08.800 expected yeah0:11:06.000,0:11:10.079 and curiously that’s a difficult0:11:08.800,0:11:12.399 question for a lot of people but0:11:10.079,0:11:14.079 it shouldn’t be it should be a really a0:11:12.399,0:11:16.640 really simple question0:11:14.079,0:11:18.320 and one that everybody asks because if0:11:16.640,0:11:20.079 you are not delivering value0:11:18.320,0:11:21.920 you need to know as soon as you can0:11:20.079,0:11:24.320 because you then got whatever it is six0:11:21.920,0:11:25.360 nine twelve months or two years to fix0:11:24.320,0:11:26.880 it0:11:25.360,0:11:29.040 if you don’t ask the question you never0:11:26.880,0:11:32.959 know um0:11:29.040,0:11:33.360 and so it’s it really is important that0:11:32.959,0:11:36.399 we0:11:33.360,0:11:37.600 focus on value and that value has to0:11:36.399,0:11:39.279 continue through the0:11:37.600,0:11:41.279 through the the life cycle of the0:11:39.279,0:11:42.959 contract and then you come up0:11:41.279,0:11:44.320 up against this problem of well hang on0:11:42.959,0:11:45.600 the guy who’s made the decision they’ve0:11:44.320,0:11:47.120 moved on they got promoted because they0:11:45.600,0:11:49.120 did such a great job0:11:47.120,0:11:50.720 yeah i think i promoted some some new0:11:49.120,0:11:52.079 guys come in and and0:11:50.720,0:11:53.680 what does a new guy want to do he wants0:11:52.079,0:11:55.360 to show that he can make things better0:11:53.680,0:11:57.519 and change things0:11:55.360,0:11:59.120 so is he going to muck around with what0:11:57.519,0:12:02.079 his princess has done0:11:59.120,0:12:03.680 well maybe but part possibly because he0:12:02.079,0:12:04.720 doesn’t understand the value you’ve just0:12:03.680,0:12:08.560 delivered so0:12:04.720,0:12:10.079 you have to keep reconfirming and0:12:08.560,0:12:12.320 and rechecking the value you’re0:12:10.079,0:12:15.279 delivering and it’s it’s so value0:12:12.320,0:12:16.480 sort of underpins everything at some0:12:15.279,0:12:18.959 point it’s going to drop off0:12:16.480,0:12:20.079 it’s at some point maybe you can’t keep0:12:18.959,0:12:22.000 up with developments0:12:20.079,0:12:23.440 the value goes down they say look we0:12:22.000,0:12:24.959 really just need to get rid of this and0:12:23.440,0:12:25.680 replace the whole thing with something0:12:24.959,0:12:29.120 else0:12:25.680,0:12:32.160 fine let’s uh you have to go with that0:12:29.120,0:12:33.279 so um uh that that’s something you have0:12:32.160,0:12:34.480 to be aware of but0:12:33.279,0:12:36.639 understanding the value that the0:12:34.480,0:12:39.360 customer is looking for and delivering0:12:36.639,0:12:40.880 it is key you get so many important0:12:39.360,0:12:42.320 points in there phil and i hope it’s0:12:40.880,0:12:43.360 okay that i’m jumping around on you0:12:42.320,0:12:46.079 because you’re in the show0:12:43.360,0:12:47.920 any cool thoughts um you know it’s so0:12:46.079,0:12:48.959 often what happens is the new person0:12:47.920,0:12:50.320 joins the project0:12:48.959,0:12:53.279 whether they the other person got0:12:50.320,0:12:56.399 promoted or went to another company0:12:53.279,0:12:58.959 and they don’t even understand what the0:12:56.399,0:13:02.000 point of the project even was0:12:58.959,0:13:02.880 is there a role for how should the0:13:02.000,0:13:06.480 customer0:13:02.880,0:13:07.519 or the vendor i should say re-educate0:13:06.480,0:13:10.160 them on here’s how0:13:07.519,0:13:10.880 why your company bought it here’s how0:13:10.160,0:13:13.040 we’ve been0:13:10.880,0:13:14.079 you know how do you do a sales job0:13:13.040,0:13:16.720 almost0:13:14.079,0:13:18.959 of that new person yeah it’s just sort0:13:16.720,0:13:21.200 of a sales job it’s sort of an education0:13:18.959,0:13:23.920 process so we used to run in our in our0:13:21.200,0:13:25.040 training at uh my former company ran a0:13:23.920,0:13:27.680 role play around this0:13:25.040,0:13:28.720 so they go through a sales process role0:13:27.680,0:13:30.480 and we say right okay0:13:28.720,0:13:31.920 now you’re one year into the contract0:13:30.480,0:13:33.839 new guy comes in0:13:31.920,0:13:36.000 and he and he’s used your competitor0:13:33.839,0:13:37.760 before so he’s sort of anti-you0:13:36.000,0:13:39.279 from day one or he’s looking for a way0:13:37.760,0:13:41.040 to change things so0:13:39.279,0:13:42.800 yeah how do you prove it so great0:13:41.040,0:13:44.079 question so it0:13:42.800,0:13:45.920 partly comes back to the way in which0:13:44.079,0:13:49.120 you’ve proven value as you go along0:13:45.920,0:13:49.920 so um yes we can have a great0:13:49.120,0:13:51.279 conversation0:13:49.920,0:13:53.279 and you can agree that we’ve delivered0:13:51.279,0:13:56.399 the value that you expected but0:13:53.279,0:13:57.760 is that documented or is is that even if0:13:56.399,0:14:00.000 it’s just an email but0:13:57.760,0:14:01.519 have i shown you have i showed you the0:14:00.000,0:14:03.839 ri roi0:14:01.519,0:14:04.720 calculation and have you accepted it0:14:03.839,0:14:07.360 actually0:14:04.720,0:14:07.920 that’s a little higher than i think of0:14:07.360,0:14:09.839 it0:14:07.920,0:14:12.240 let’s have a conversation let’s sort of0:14:09.839,0:14:14.160 document it and sign off0:14:12.240,0:14:15.440 and if you think about the sales process0:14:14.160,0:14:18.000 remember the0:14:15.440,0:14:18.800 uh verifiable outcomes i think ibm used0:14:18.000,0:14:21.519 to call them0:14:18.800,0:14:23.519 yeah in signature setting verifiable0:14:21.519,0:14:25.279 outcomes what is it that you need the0:14:23.519,0:14:26.639 customer to do0:14:25.279,0:14:28.480 three months into the contract you need0:14:26.639,0:14:30.560 them to say yes0:14:28.480,0:14:32.399 you’ve delivered the value i expected0:14:30.560,0:14:34.959 i’m really happy0:14:32.399,0:14:36.560 almost sign off on it uh and what do you0:14:34.959,0:14:37.040 do after six months nine months twelve0:14:36.560,0:14:40.240 months0:14:37.040,0:14:42.639 you need to keep that going and just0:14:40.240,0:14:45.680 really for transparency but also to know0:14:42.639,0:14:48.079 am i about to get uh0:14:45.680,0:14:49.360 burned by by something else coming in or0:14:48.079,0:14:52.160 a change somewhere0:14:49.360,0:14:54.240 well the point i mean i’d be curious if0:14:52.160,0:14:56.480 you disagree with me phil but0:14:54.240,0:14:58.000 i think the original point of the qbr0:14:56.480,0:15:00.720 you know the quarterly business review0:14:58.000,0:15:03.040 was to sit down and do exactly that but0:15:00.720,0:15:06.880 so often it seems like they can0:15:03.040,0:15:09.760 they’ve been um changed into almost0:15:06.880,0:15:12.000 roger patting yourself on the back0:15:09.760,0:15:15.199 here’s what we accomplished last quarter0:15:12.000,0:15:17.360 thank you yes to a conversation about0:15:15.199,0:15:19.440 have we achieved those goals how do we0:15:17.360,0:15:21.199 you know do we refine the goals have the0:15:19.440,0:15:22.800 problems change and all of that0:15:21.199,0:15:24.639 they’re much more about hey here’s all0:15:22.800,0:15:25.120 the things we’ve done how do we how do0:15:24.639,0:15:28.160 we0:15:25.120,0:15:29.519 is the qbr the right place for that or0:15:28.160,0:15:31.120 is there something different we should0:15:29.519,0:15:33.120 be trying to do0:15:31.120,0:15:34.240 you certainly need to have a formalized0:15:33.120,0:15:36.320 structure like a0:15:34.240,0:15:37.920 qbi and it’s a it’s a great place to0:15:36.320,0:15:39.680 have it just make sure you’ve got the0:15:37.920,0:15:41.199 right components in there0:15:39.680,0:15:43.440 yeah and i was talking to this guy0:15:41.199,0:15:44.959 yesterday an old colleague0:15:43.440,0:15:47.759 in hong kong works for a different firm0:15:44.959,0:15:49.839 now uh yesterday morning and they were0:15:47.759,0:15:51.440 he was talking about these qbr’s they do0:15:49.839,0:15:53.279 at three months six months nine months0:15:51.440,0:15:55.040 12 months0:15:53.279,0:15:56.320 and actually he was although i don’t0:15:55.040,0:15:57.440 think he was involved at the time he was0:15:56.320,0:16:00.079 he was0:15:57.440,0:16:01.759 basically reflecting something we’d done0:16:00.079,0:16:04.959 10 15 years ago or0:16:01.759,0:16:07.199 one of our managers have done in in asia0:16:04.959,0:16:08.079 and it was a really cool i thought it0:16:07.199,0:16:11.839 was really cool0:16:08.079,0:16:13.440 yeah review meeting where you you bring0:16:11.839,0:16:15.360 together all the data the customer0:16:13.440,0:16:16.720 needs to see and and it’s a red amber0:16:15.360,0:16:19.440 green0:16:16.720,0:16:21.360 but it’s basically a it’s not a finger0:16:19.440,0:16:23.519 pointing this is red because0:16:21.360,0:16:24.720 it’s just saying look if you carry on at0:16:23.519,0:16:26.399 this sort of level0:16:24.720,0:16:27.759 you might something might break and it0:16:26.399,0:16:28.800 might fall over and then there’ll be0:16:27.759,0:16:30.639 consequences0:16:28.800,0:16:32.560 okay you’re probably okay for six months0:16:30.639,0:16:35.279 but you need to think about either0:16:32.560,0:16:37.279 changing your usage pattern or thinking0:16:35.279,0:16:38.480 about the hard way you’re running on or0:16:37.279,0:16:39.839 think about the way in which you’re0:16:38.480,0:16:42.720 consuming data0:16:39.839,0:16:43.440 and so on so it became a um this is0:16:42.720,0:16:46.800 where we’re at0:16:43.440,0:16:48.320 factual uh this is where you need to be0:16:46.800,0:16:50.959 in 12 months time0:16:48.320,0:16:52.320 you need to watch out for this stuff um0:16:50.959,0:16:54.560 and and this0:16:52.320,0:16:56.800 xcody i was talking to yesterday they’re0:16:54.560,0:16:59.279 doing that and it’s a great way of0:16:56.800,0:17:00.959 having a positive transparent0:16:59.279,0:17:04.000 conversation with0:17:00.959,0:17:06.559 customers as a positive outcome now0:17:04.000,0:17:07.919 add to that you then say okay how’s your0:17:06.559,0:17:09.280 business changing and that there’s a0:17:07.919,0:17:10.959 section in your0:17:09.280,0:17:12.319 review meeting that says how’s your0:17:10.959,0:17:14.319 business changing what’s0:17:12.319,0:17:15.439 really important and you’ve got to ask0:17:14.319,0:17:18.160 those questions so0:17:15.439,0:17:20.400 coming back to who’s in that meeting0:17:18.160,0:17:23.280 account manager customer success manager0:17:20.400,0:17:26.720 if you’ve got that split role whoever’s0:17:23.280,0:17:30.640 running the meeting has to be equipped0:17:26.720,0:17:32.880 to ask those questions and be able to0:17:30.640,0:17:34.160 to have that conversation at the right0:17:32.880,0:17:36.640 level so0:17:34.160,0:17:38.400 we’re talking here about users managers0:17:36.640,0:17:41.679 executive level they have to be0:17:38.400,0:17:44.480 competent to do all three i like that0:17:41.679,0:17:46.320 you know and you mentioned earlier0:17:44.480,0:17:47.760 something i wanted to come back to phil0:17:46.320,0:17:49.360 you were talking about0:17:47.760,0:17:51.679 and you just refer to it again at the0:17:49.360,0:17:54.880 right level sometimes0:17:51.679,0:17:56.880 you know these qbrs and just retention0:17:54.880,0:17:59.360 and the whole rollout of projects and0:17:56.880,0:18:01.679 stuff often happens with a team that’s0:17:59.360,0:18:05.039 not at the decision-making level0:18:01.679,0:18:07.200 yeah and you have no visibility as the0:18:05.039,0:18:08.880 vendor as the product company whatever0:18:07.200,0:18:10.960 in terms of how those internal0:18:08.880,0:18:12.640 conversations are going0:18:10.960,0:18:15.120 you know you may think you’re doing0:18:12.640,0:18:17.600 great but they may be saying internally0:18:15.120,0:18:19.360 this isn’t so good how do you start how0:18:17.600,0:18:22.400 do you0:18:19.360,0:18:23.120 start to pull in either the the decision0:18:22.400,0:18:24.559 maker0:18:23.120,0:18:27.360 or how do you at least make sure they’re0:18:24.559,0:18:28.080 aware of of your perspective on how it’s0:18:27.360,0:18:31.039 going0:18:28.080,0:18:32.960 so that you’re not surprised too yeah so0:18:31.039,0:18:35.600 it sort of comes back to the whole the0:18:32.960,0:18:37.200 the way in which you sell so um0:18:35.600,0:18:38.400 hopefully you’ve sold in the right way0:18:37.200,0:18:40.720 so the guy who brought0:18:38.400,0:18:42.080 who initiated the project and decided on0:18:40.720,0:18:44.640 it is still involved0:18:42.080,0:18:45.919 you’ve got commitment from there from0:18:44.640,0:18:47.600 them but if not you’re going to have to0:18:45.919,0:18:48.640 develop those contacts in the same way0:18:47.600,0:18:52.000 that you develop them0:18:48.640,0:18:52.960 in a sales opportunity uh who matters go0:18:52.000,0:18:54.640 and actually0:18:52.960,0:18:56.480 leverage those meetings to go out and0:18:54.640,0:18:56.960 meet people if you’ve got a good story0:18:56.480,0:18:59.600 to tell0:18:56.960,0:19:00.720 your contacts in the customer should be0:18:59.600,0:19:02.640 happy for you to do that0:19:00.720,0:19:04.880 and give you referrals all over the0:19:02.640,0:19:07.840 place because you’ve got a great roi0:19:04.880,0:19:09.120 story so um so why not boast about it0:19:07.840,0:19:12.480 it’s got value for them0:19:09.120,0:19:13.760 on a personal level um so0:19:12.480,0:19:15.840 you’ve but you’ve got to do that0:19:13.760,0:19:17.280 actively you can’t you can’t just sit0:19:15.840,0:19:18.320 there and hope that these guys are going0:19:17.280,0:19:19.600 to notice0:19:18.320,0:19:21.360 you’ve got to make sure they notice0:19:19.600,0:19:22.960 because hoping it’s like opportunity0:19:21.360,0:19:24.160 management you can’t hope guess or0:19:22.960,0:19:27.360 assume0:19:24.160,0:19:29.120 you have to know because otherwise0:19:27.360,0:19:31.120 you’re potentially in trouble yeah no i0:19:29.120,0:19:33.280 like that a lot and um0:19:31.120,0:19:35.280 i like that a lot and i’ve seen it so0:19:33.280,0:19:36.480 many times over and over again where you0:19:35.280,0:19:39.039 get into0:19:36.480,0:19:40.480 maybe it’s one division one one business0:19:39.039,0:19:43.440 unit whatever0:19:40.480,0:19:44.480 and nail it be successful but the whole0:19:43.440,0:19:46.240 time through0:19:44.480,0:19:48.400 you’re also trying to find other people0:19:46.240,0:19:51.360 you can share that story with internally0:19:48.400,0:19:53.039 again making that the customer that0:19:51.360,0:19:55.200 you’re working with the hero0:19:53.039,0:19:56.720 hey they’re the ones having huge success0:19:55.200,0:19:59.039 they want to brag about it0:19:56.720,0:19:59.919 they want people to know about it0:19:59.039,0:20:02.080 absolutely0:19:59.919,0:20:03.120 let me switch gears a little bit so0:20:02.080,0:20:04.960 we’ve talked about a0:20:03.120,0:20:07.200 number of really important things around0:20:04.960,0:20:09.280 retention i want to bring it back to the0:20:07.200,0:20:10.400 training slash enablement side for a0:20:09.280,0:20:13.280 second though0:20:10.400,0:20:17.200 how on earth should enablement teams be0:20:13.280,0:20:19.600 thinking about their roles in supporting0:20:17.200,0:20:21.520 i’ll say retention broadly and see where0:20:19.600,0:20:24.559 we go from there0:20:21.520,0:20:28.799 uh yes so enablement does0:20:24.559,0:20:30.159 encompass um training sometimes i think0:20:28.799,0:20:32.000 i think one of the key points i would0:20:30.159,0:20:33.280 start at from a label0:20:32.000,0:20:35.520 perspective and i’m not sure how many0:20:33.280,0:20:36.080 enablement teams do this i haven’t seen0:20:35.520,0:20:39.280 too many0:20:36.080,0:20:41.120 is is win-loss analysis0:20:39.280,0:20:42.960 uh and now i think that belongs to0:20:41.120,0:20:45.440 enablement um0:20:42.960,0:20:46.880 someone’s got to go in there and find0:20:45.440,0:20:49.600 out why did we lose why do we0:20:46.880,0:20:50.640 why do we win and the losing is is0:20:49.600,0:20:52.559 always an interesting one i0:20:50.640,0:20:54.320 always remember in the crm you’d have a0:20:52.559,0:20:55.520 drop down this is why we lost the deal0:20:54.320,0:20:57.039 this is whatever this is why the0:20:55.520,0:20:58.799 customer cancelled0:20:57.039,0:21:00.400 and it usually says the product was0:20:58.799,0:21:02.240 rubbish or0:21:00.400,0:21:03.840 hey price the price was too high all the0:21:02.240,0:21:04.480 competitors came in with a better better0:21:03.840,0:21:06.320 proposition0:21:04.480,0:21:07.760 yeah but it never what never says is the0:21:06.320,0:21:09.919 account team screwed up0:21:07.760,0:21:12.559 and and that’s fair enough but again0:21:09.919,0:21:15.520 going back to the data we know from0:21:12.559,0:21:17.440 ceb gartner you know if 53 of the reason0:21:15.520,0:21:18.320 why customers buy and stay loyal to a0:21:17.440,0:21:20.880 supplier0:21:18.320,0:21:21.520 is the sales experience why isn’t that0:21:20.880,0:21:24.799 on the drop0:21:21.520,0:21:28.159 down so so you really need to0:21:24.799,0:21:30.480 don’t rely on simplistic data like that0:21:28.159,0:21:33.120 a little drop down or a number0:21:30.480,0:21:34.159 go and inspect and ask the customer so0:21:33.120,0:21:35.679 tell me why0:21:34.159,0:21:37.440 why are you canceling what’s changing0:21:35.679,0:21:40.480 your business0:21:37.440,0:21:42.080 and equally you do that for wins so you0:21:40.480,0:21:43.440 need to know why people have what have0:21:42.080,0:21:44.159 actually bought from you because it0:21:43.440,0:21:45.919 might be0:21:44.159,0:21:48.080 the account management experience was0:21:45.919,0:21:49.360 fantastic it wasn’t about the product at0:21:48.080,0:21:51.520 all so don’t0:21:49.360,0:21:52.960 don’t delude yourself that the product’s0:21:51.520,0:21:53.919 fantastic if it’s really the account0:21:52.960,0:21:55.919 management0:21:53.919,0:21:57.520 so know why you win know why you lose0:21:55.919,0:21:59.840 and i think that’s an important0:21:57.520,0:22:03.360 sales label focus and that now i think0:21:59.840,0:22:03.360 that you know there’s playbooks around0:22:04.240,0:22:08.240 like sales playbooks retention playbooks0:22:06.559,0:22:09.520 um they can help with account planning0:22:08.240,0:22:12.640 that’s key i mean0:22:09.520,0:22:14.720 big accounts need a customized0:22:12.640,0:22:18.240 account playbook that includes this is0:22:14.720,0:22:18.240 how we are going to retain the business0:22:18.720,0:22:23.200 account planning fill but they don’t0:22:21.200,0:22:24.960 necessarily do the retention planning as0:22:23.200,0:22:28.640 part of that process0:22:24.960,0:22:30.480 um or or do you disagree with that do0:22:28.640,0:22:31.919 they do a good enough job and if not0:22:30.480,0:22:35.840 what’s missing0:22:31.919,0:22:37.120 i i haven’t seen enough from0:22:35.840,0:22:38.640 companies i haven’t worked with i’ve0:22:37.120,0:22:39.200 worked with a number of companies and0:22:38.640,0:22:41.120 been0:22:39.200,0:22:43.120 lucky to be involved in in sessions with0:22:41.120,0:22:45.280 a number of different companies0:22:43.120,0:22:46.720 and account planning tends to be about0:22:45.280,0:22:50.400 how do we sell more0:22:46.720,0:22:54.000 yeah um rather than how do we make sure0:22:50.400,0:22:56.880 what we’ve got is going to stick um0:22:54.000,0:22:57.360 and that comes back to one of the one0:22:56.880,0:22:59.600 the0:22:57.360,0:23:00.720 attention really doesn’t get the0:22:59.600,0:23:03.440 traction it needs0:23:00.720,0:23:05.440 is because uh to point that if i’m going0:23:03.440,0:23:07.760 to point a finger at sales leadership0:23:05.440,0:23:09.760 is because sales leadership loves the0:23:07.760,0:23:12.880 sales0:23:09.760,0:23:13.840 yeah but up on the side or on the logo0:23:12.880,0:23:16.799 yeah0:23:13.840,0:23:18.080 and and those guys get the big bucks for0:23:16.799,0:23:20.640 making the big sales0:23:18.080,0:23:23.360 and actually uh they need to have a0:23:20.640,0:23:25.520 culture in their organization0:23:23.360,0:23:27.360 where retention is recognized and0:23:25.520,0:23:29.440 appreciated for what it is which is0:23:27.360,0:23:31.120 this is how why the firm is in business0:23:29.440,0:23:33.280 and why we’re why we are going to be in0:23:31.120,0:23:35.039 business for the next 20 30 years0:23:33.280,0:23:36.320 because we are really helping our0:23:35.039,0:23:37.760 customers you know0:23:36.320,0:23:41.200 delivering value to our customers and0:23:37.760,0:23:41.200 they love us for it so0:23:41.360,0:23:45.279 that and i’ve seen it in the past you0:23:43.440,0:23:47.440 have a retention target and then you say0:23:45.279,0:23:49.919 okay so what are we going to do to get0:23:47.440,0:23:51.200 there or we’re going to do more service0:23:49.919,0:23:54.320 okay0:23:51.200,0:23:56.400 uh anything else and there’s no real0:23:54.320,0:23:57.520 no real engagement from the top0:23:56.400,0:23:59.840 leadership0:23:57.520,0:24:01.919 and i’m being big broad brush here but0:23:59.840,0:24:04.240 you don’t hear necessarily from0:24:01.919,0:24:05.919 the companies i’ve spoken to that top0:24:04.240,0:24:08.080 leadership is really helping them0:24:05.919,0:24:10.480 on that retention journey in the way0:24:08.080,0:24:12.400 that they could um0:24:10.480,0:24:14.400 they’re not calculating roi because it’s0:24:12.400,0:24:17.360 hard they’re not calculating value0:24:14.400,0:24:17.360 because it’s hard so0:24:17.600,0:24:23.520 maybe maybe they don’t know how to do it0:24:21.120,0:24:25.360 and maybe that’s that’s the reason yeah0:24:23.520,0:24:27.360 would would you advocate that sales0:24:25.360,0:24:28.960 leaders get compensated in part based0:24:27.360,0:24:30.720 upon retention0:24:28.960,0:24:32.480 well i think they probably do you know0:24:30.720,0:24:35.760 it’ll be on many deals0:24:32.480,0:24:38.400 net sales many many do um but it0:24:35.760,0:24:40.080 it so you can if you could if you have a0:24:38.400,0:24:41.360 great sales organization you can win0:24:40.080,0:24:44.240 more deals0:24:41.360,0:24:46.400 but interestingly of course if you just0:24:44.240,0:24:48.000 raise your0:24:46.400,0:24:49.760 only one other things about retention i0:24:48.000,0:24:52.240 should mention0:24:49.760,0:24:53.200 is is the price increase particularly in0:24:52.240,0:24:54.080 the sas business0:24:53.200,0:24:56.480 you know if you’re going to increase0:24:54.080,0:24:58.400 your price by three four percent a year0:24:56.480,0:25:00.159 uh your big customers they’re not seeing0:24:58.400,0:25:00.880 value you’re gonna start to chip away at0:25:00.159,0:25:03.440 that and take it0:25:00.880,0:25:04.799 take a one percent off yeah so it’s a0:25:03.440,0:25:05.360 three percent not a four percent rise0:25:04.799,0:25:07.360 well0:25:05.360,0:25:08.559 well that translates into an eight0:25:07.360,0:25:11.440 percent impact0:25:08.559,0:25:12.960 on average to your profit margins now0:25:11.440,0:25:15.760 that’s a massive difference0:25:12.960,0:25:16.159 so um depends how a little bit how0:25:15.760,0:25:18.880 they’re0:25:16.159,0:25:19.919 remunerated is it on profit is it on0:25:18.880,0:25:22.159 gross sales0:25:19.919,0:25:23.200 depends how they’ve sold their business0:25:22.159,0:25:27.440 plan to their0:25:23.200,0:25:29.039 shareholders or to the directors so um0:25:27.440,0:25:31.520 i i would love to see them say right0:25:29.039,0:25:33.039 we’re going to aim for 96 970:25:31.520,0:25:35.360 retention and here’s how we’re going to0:25:33.039,0:25:36.880 do it and see the impact on the bottom0:25:35.360,0:25:38.799 on the bottom line0:25:36.880,0:25:41.440 uh rather than necessarily moving the0:25:38.799,0:25:43.440 needle on the top line because0:25:41.440,0:25:44.720 people sign bad deals as well and0:25:43.440,0:25:45.760 there’s some deals they should never0:25:44.720,0:25:48.559 sign0:25:45.760,0:25:50.400 so um you put the pressure on the top0:25:48.559,0:25:53.120 line sometimes you get0:25:50.400,0:25:54.640 uh a lousy impact on the bottom line0:25:53.120,0:25:55.760 because you’ve done deals you should0:25:54.640,0:26:00.000 never have done0:25:55.760,0:26:02.240 so it’s just one one area where i think0:26:00.000,0:26:03.679 the metrics are really important nice0:26:02.240,0:26:04.880 yeah and we’ve all seen those deals0:26:03.679,0:26:06.960 we’ve all seen those deals where it’s0:26:04.880,0:26:08.640 like crap why did we agree we were going0:26:06.960,0:26:11.279 to do this0:26:08.640,0:26:13.840 and you know why they agree he knows why0:26:11.279,0:26:17.760 they agree because somebody somewhere0:26:13.840,0:26:21.200 has said i need this to achieve my goal0:26:17.760,0:26:24.159 and uh i’ll discount it by 40 what0:26:21.200,0:26:25.679 yeah so yeah and we’re not going to make0:26:24.159,0:26:27.039 any money on it and it’s going to kill0:26:25.679,0:26:30.159 us on the back end yeah0:26:27.039,0:26:31.200 exactly but so so and then fundamentally0:26:30.159,0:26:33.279 or just to make it a0:26:31.200,0:26:34.480 really big issue it comes down to the0:26:33.279,0:26:37.360 culture if you’ve got0:26:34.480,0:26:38.400 lead sales leaders who are doing that0:26:37.360,0:26:40.240 why is that happening well that’s0:26:38.400,0:26:43.679 because the sales culture0:26:40.240,0:26:46.480 is not thinking about customer first0:26:43.679,0:26:47.520 uh deliver value uh how do we drive0:26:46.480,0:26:51.840 profit for the shelves0:26:47.520,0:26:54.000 it’s it’s driven by something else0:26:51.840,0:26:55.120 yeah it goes back to the old wells fargo0:26:54.000,0:26:56.960 failures about oh0:26:55.120,0:26:58.159 we just have to keep making sales as0:26:56.960,0:26:59.840 opposed to0:26:58.159,0:27:02.400 that being the only focus and that’s0:26:59.840,0:27:04.240 when things go really badly0:27:02.400,0:27:05.679 let me ask you this phil we’re 290:27:04.240,0:27:06.559 minutes in so i want to be sensitive to0:27:05.679,0:27:08.240 the time0:27:06.559,0:27:10.159 okay is there anything we didn’t touch0:27:08.240,0:27:11.279 upon they like jeez john i want to make0:27:10.159,0:27:16.559 sure to share this0:27:11.279,0:27:16.559 this point with everybody um0:27:16.720,0:27:20.720 uh you asked me that question before and0:27:18.799,0:27:24.080 i was thinking uh i really0:27:20.720,0:27:25.520 answered and asked this um that’s okay0:27:24.080,0:27:26.399 if you don’t0:27:25.520,0:27:28.399 because we haven’t talked about0:27:26.399,0:27:30.320 technology i’m not i’m not a technical0:27:28.399,0:27:31.600 guy but i think i think um0:27:30.320,0:27:34.159 metrics is one of those things that0:27:31.600,0:27:35.919 comes out of technology0:27:34.159,0:27:38.720 that i think we have to be wary of i0:27:35.919,0:27:41.919 think too often we are0:27:38.720,0:27:42.640 really focused on data points fine it0:27:41.919,0:27:46.240 tells us0:27:42.640,0:27:48.080 something but it’s a quantitative0:27:46.240,0:27:49.840 number it’s not qualitative and i think0:27:48.080,0:27:51.679 where0:27:49.840,0:27:53.600 all this data is great but you have to0:27:51.679,0:27:56.240 go and understand where it’s coming from0:27:53.600,0:27:57.679 what it’s telling you and actually test0:27:56.240,0:28:01.360 whether it’s real0:27:57.679,0:28:03.679 so so to what extent our sales leaders0:28:01.360,0:28:05.279 inspecting and observing what their0:28:03.679,0:28:06.240 managers are doing and how much of their0:28:05.279,0:28:08.960 managers0:28:06.240,0:28:10.399 observing what the frontline’s doing0:28:08.960,0:28:13.840 because you get all this data whether0:28:10.399,0:28:15.679 it’s a pipeline or a retention metric0:28:13.840,0:28:16.880 but you don’t know what it really means0:28:15.679,0:28:19.600 on the ground0:28:16.880,0:28:22.320 uh and so i think there is a frustration0:28:19.600,0:28:24.880 i’ve seen in many0:28:22.320,0:28:25.679 we talked to friends and colleagues so0:28:24.880,0:28:28.799 many managers0:28:25.679,0:28:30.159 are not doing the right things because0:28:28.799,0:28:32.720 they’re overworked they’ve got so so0:28:30.159,0:28:33.919 much to do sure but they have to get out0:28:32.720,0:28:37.600 there and0:28:33.919,0:28:40.159 observe give feedback and coach um0:28:37.600,0:28:41.919 and that’s a massive driver for uh for0:28:40.159,0:28:43.919 performance enhancement0:28:41.919,0:28:46.240 yeah i mean it’s not happening yeah0:28:43.919,0:28:49.919 every study i ever see0:28:46.240,0:28:51.840 i’ve ever seen around sales performance0:28:49.919,0:28:53.600 always comes back and points at coaching0:28:51.840,0:28:56.399 as the number one0:28:53.600,0:28:57.440 most impactful activity you could0:28:56.399,0:28:59.360 perform0:28:57.440,0:29:00.880 and it’s hard because you’re right so0:28:59.360,0:29:01.840 many people are buried they don’t take0:29:00.880,0:29:03.039 the time0:29:01.840,0:29:05.120 because they don’t feel like they have0:29:03.039,0:29:06.640 the time and they get focused in on some0:29:05.120,0:29:08.240 of the0:29:06.640,0:29:09.600 activities that feel right but not0:29:08.240,0:29:10.399 they’re not necessarily in the right0:29:09.600,0:29:13.760 activities0:29:10.399,0:29:16.480 yeah although the recent research0:29:13.760,0:29:17.840 who was it uh vantage partners i can’t0:29:16.480,0:29:20.399 remember the name now um0:29:17.840,0:29:21.279 was got some great data crushing the0:29:20.399,0:29:22.960 quota0:29:21.279,0:29:25.360 question quote i think was the book0:29:22.960,0:29:28.240 great data on it’s activity focused0:29:25.360,0:29:29.600 coaching that really drives performance0:29:28.240,0:29:31.120 rather than just0:29:29.600,0:29:32.799 nice coaching yeah enjoying nice0:29:31.120,0:29:35.760 coaching that’s unfair0:29:32.799,0:29:37.440 generic generic coaching but but but0:29:35.760,0:29:39.520 actually focus on0:29:37.440,0:29:40.559 how are you planning for this meeting0:29:39.520,0:29:41.840 how are you planning for this0:29:40.559,0:29:43.440 negotiation0:29:41.840,0:29:45.760 how did you do in that negotiation0:29:43.440,0:29:47.760 conversation and that drives a much0:29:45.760,0:29:49.279 greater performance enhancement0:29:47.760,0:29:50.880 and it’s it’s very tangible sales0:29:49.279,0:29:53.360 managers can get hold of that but0:29:50.880,0:29:54.159 um but they’ve they’ve got to be0:29:53.360,0:29:55.840 courageous and0:29:54.159,0:29:58.399 actually expose themselves to doing0:29:55.840,0:30:00.640 coaching and for some reason0:29:58.399,0:30:02.320 a number of them are reluctant but if0:30:00.640,0:30:03.600 everyone was doing that i think we’d see0:30:02.320,0:30:05.919 a0:30:03.600,0:30:07.360 much more professional sales force in in0:30:05.919,0:30:09.840 so many different companies0:30:07.360,0:30:11.600 i i agree and the the the point i’ll0:30:09.840,0:30:13.120 throw out there and i’ll let you react0:30:11.600,0:30:15.600 to it before we get to the end0:30:13.120,0:30:16.240 is i think you know the sales managers0:30:15.600,0:30:20.080 sometimes0:30:16.240,0:30:22.880 are not giving it given enough training0:30:20.080,0:30:25.279 not uh given sort of priorities that say0:30:22.880,0:30:26.960 these are the things you should be doing0:30:25.279,0:30:29.360 and with the lack of training and the0:30:26.960,0:30:31.039 lack of coaching from above0:30:29.360,0:30:32.640 they fall back to doing what they’ve0:30:31.039,0:30:33.440 done all along in their careers to be0:30:32.640,0:30:35.919 successful0:30:33.440,0:30:37.919 certainly new sales managers and that’s0:30:35.919,0:30:40.559 helping everybody close deals0:30:37.919,0:30:41.760 so i think we need to the onus needs to0:30:40.559,0:30:43.520 be on the company0:30:41.760,0:30:46.080 to give them the guidance and all of0:30:43.520,0:30:47.679 that for sales managers to say0:30:46.080,0:30:49.520 here’s what you need to do and here’s0:30:47.679,0:30:52.080 how to do it0:30:49.520,0:30:53.120 absolutely and then the senior leaders0:30:52.080,0:30:55.360 have to walk the0:30:53.120,0:30:57.039 walk and not just talk the talk they0:30:55.360,0:30:58.559 have to actually do it themselves so0:30:57.039,0:31:00.559 sit in and observe a meeting give0:30:58.559,0:31:04.000 feedback don’t don’t just0:31:00.559,0:31:06.559 interfere uh be that be there0:31:04.000,0:31:08.320 to to provide feedback um and and to0:31:06.559,0:31:10.799 help their managers get better because0:31:08.320,0:31:12.799 um you know we all need help from time0:31:10.799,0:31:14.159 to time every new job you step into is a0:31:12.799,0:31:16.960 is a new0:31:14.159,0:31:18.320 journey and you need help to to get your0:31:16.960,0:31:19.600 head around it fast0:31:18.320,0:31:21.519 there’s a lot of great people out there0:31:19.600,0:31:23.760 who can do that but there’s a lot0:31:21.519,0:31:24.960 who just needs a bit of support so don’t0:31:23.760,0:31:27.360 don’t assume they need0:31:24.960,0:31:28.320 they can do it you’ve got to check what0:31:27.360,0:31:30.240 can they do it0:31:28.320,0:31:32.000 and if you can’t how can i help them i0:31:30.240,0:31:33.840 was going to say you know and robin0:31:32.000,0:31:35.679 and people know robin robin threw a0:31:33.840,0:31:37.760 message in here saying you know0:31:35.679,0:31:39.919 how do you change that mindset when it0:31:37.760,0:31:41.840 comes down to a reluctance to do0:31:39.919,0:31:43.200 coaching0:31:41.840,0:31:47.840 oh that’s a great question great0:31:43.200,0:31:47.840 question thanks robert0:31:50.960,0:31:56.720 i think um i i think it is culture0:31:55.440,0:31:59.279 fundamentally it’s culture of the0:31:56.720,0:32:02.720 organization um0:31:59.279,0:32:05.200 and uh being being transparent and open0:32:02.720,0:32:06.480 to i and i’ve done it for years i’ve0:32:05.200,0:32:07.919 been very0:32:06.480,0:32:09.519 you know i’ll close my arms you know0:32:07.919,0:32:11.440 you’re giving me feedback0:32:09.519,0:32:13.120 and i’ll be i don’t want to hear that0:32:11.440,0:32:15.919 really yeah i don’t want that0:32:13.120,0:32:18.240 i don’t want that feedback feedback’s0:32:15.919,0:32:21.840 the food of champions but i’m not hungry0:32:18.240,0:32:23.519 um and it’s um0:32:21.840,0:32:25.919 you’ve got you’ve got to switch people’s0:32:23.519,0:32:27.600 minds so that this is acceptable0:32:25.919,0:32:29.600 and that that’s a that’s a brave thing0:32:27.600,0:32:32.240 to do for an organization that is0:32:29.600,0:32:33.600 driven by results that has to deliver0:32:32.240,0:32:35.760 the quarterly numbers0:32:33.600,0:32:36.720 to suddenly say well we’re gonna we’re0:32:35.760,0:32:39.919 gonna be a little bit0:32:36.720,0:32:42.799 more inclusive a bit more0:32:39.919,0:32:44.240 uh supportive uh rather than just0:32:42.799,0:32:46.240 charging off the numbers but0:32:44.240,0:32:48.080 but but ultimately i think when charging0:32:46.240,0:32:48.880 up the numbers you end up measuring the0:32:48.080,0:32:51.279 wrong things0:32:48.880,0:32:53.279 you end up with people tick box0:32:51.279,0:32:53.840 exercises i’ve done 27 meetings this0:32:53.279,0:32:57.279 week0:32:53.840,0:33:00.640 i have 15 deals in the pipeline0:32:57.279,0:33:02.880 great uh let’s have a look at quality0:33:00.640,0:33:04.960 let’s let’s let’s see what’s going on0:33:02.880,0:33:07.120 what’s real what’s not real i think0:33:04.960,0:33:08.320 i think um again it comes back to that0:33:07.120,0:33:12.000 that data point0:33:08.320,0:33:12.960 you have data points that don’t that are0:33:12.000,0:33:14.720 meaningless0:33:12.960,0:33:16.480 uh they don’t tell you the true state of0:33:14.720,0:33:18.399 play in the business0:33:16.480,0:33:20.720 so i mean what i’m taking from that phil0:33:18.399,0:33:22.399 is you know culturally we need to build0:33:20.720,0:33:25.519 a culture that0:33:22.399,0:33:28.080 first off respects uh0:33:25.519,0:33:29.279 having time for that coaching where the0:33:28.080,0:33:31.919 senior leaders0:33:29.279,0:33:33.039 demonstrated as you touched upon earlier0:33:31.919,0:33:34.640 where we’re not simply0:33:33.039,0:33:35.840 taking the numbers but we’re really0:33:34.640,0:33:36.960 trying to understand what they’re0:33:35.840,0:33:39.200 telling us0:33:36.960,0:33:40.320 and both the quantity and the quality of0:33:39.200,0:33:41.919 all those numbers0:33:40.320,0:33:44.159 and if we do those sorts of things0:33:41.919,0:33:45.360 that’s a start at least towards changing0:33:44.159,0:33:49.120 the culture and0:33:45.360,0:33:51.600 hearts and minds of everybody involved0:33:49.120,0:33:52.880 it’s just not it’s nice it’s just not0:33:51.600,0:33:55.279 not that simple0:33:52.880,0:33:56.880 no it’s a hard it’s a hard thing to do0:33:55.279,0:33:57.679 it’s a hard thing to do it’s easy to0:33:56.880,0:34:00.960 articulate0:33:57.679,0:34:01.679 perhaps but very hard and a lot of hard0:34:00.960,0:34:06.640 work0:34:01.679,0:34:08.720 to make it happen yeah know0:34:06.640,0:34:09.679 this was wonderful that’s been great0:34:08.720,0:34:11.520 talking john0:34:09.679,0:34:12.800 it’s been fantastic talking thank you0:34:11.520,0:34:14.480 robin thank you everybody0:34:12.800,0:34:16.000 who took time to out of their day to0:34:14.480,0:34:19.119 listen in uh0:34:16.000,0:34:21.040 reach out to phil on linkedin and0:34:19.119,0:34:23.679 tell him you need him to help you figure0:34:21.040,0:34:25.359 out your attention strategy0:34:23.679,0:34:29.760 all right phil thank you so much sean0:34:25.359,0:34:29.760 thank you have a great day thank you

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